Minor League Database interest

legendsport · 02-15-2006, 11:21 AM

I sent a PM to Markus, but didn't hear back from him, so I thought I'd post and see what the community thinks.

I'm thinking about putting together a Lahman-style database for the minor leagues (initially probably just the higher level leagues - PCL, IL and AA). I would guess that there would be interest in this sort of thing for historical leagues (my URB league uses the framework of the db already).

My question to Markus was whether it would be possible to import the players out of the database and have the sim adjust for the lower quality of play in those leagues, or if it would need to be manually adjusted (which is what I currently do using Bill James' Minor League Equivalencies).

I've been playing OOTP since v2 and am looking to give back to the community in a meaningful way.

Erik · 02-15-2006, 11:29 AM

Excuse my ignorance but this confuses me.

Would someone use this database in place of the Lahman database?

Sublimity · 02-15-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik

Excuse my ignorance but this confuses me.

Would someone use this database in place of the Lahman database?

I don't do Historical leagues, but I think the depth of the new game would really make this more worthwhile. With minor leagues being fleshed out and the possibility of indepedent leagues (like the PCL), some will want players for them. The PCL especially will. I don't know if Lahman supports them.

Hopefully that answers your question at least somewhat.

legendsport · 02-15-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik

Excuse my ignorance but this confuses me.

Would someone use this database in place of the Lahman database?

That would depend in part on whether it'd be supported by the game (which at this late date I suspect will not be the case).

Either way it would follow the same data structure as the Lahman database, playerIDs would be the same for the guys who played in the big leagues and it could either be appended to the existing Lahman database, or you could use it seperately to import your rookies.

ifspuds · 02-15-2006, 12:08 PM

Are you talking about setting up a historical database of minor league players? There was a short-lived movement to do this a while back, but I think the effort died off due to a lack of people working diligently at it. There was someone (maybe two people) scanning stats from print sources and LGO was sending out pages for people to do the data entry. I was involved on the data entry front. I still think it'd be a fantastic idea if there were enough people that could dedicate a lot of time to it. I know I'm not the only one that would like to run a historically accurate PCL simulation.

legendsport · 02-15-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifspuds

Are you talking about setting up a historical database of minor league players?

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. It would start off to include just the PCL, AA and IL, but would eventually include the second-tier leagues (Southern League, Texas League, Eastern League and so on). I have the material needed to do it; I was just wondering if a) people thought it worthwhile and b) whether or not some sort of import structure could be put into the new version to avoid having to normalize the statistics prior to import (which is what I do now).

ifspuds · 02-15-2006, 12:18 PM

I don't think there's any doubt that it would be worthwhile. I'd love it, and I'm pretty sure I'm far from the only one.

eriqjaffe · 02-15-2006, 12:42 PM

Didn't LGO already start doing something like this?

Not to discourage you, mind you - the more, the merrier!

Astros33Resurrected · 02-15-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

I sent a PM to Markus, but didn't hear back from him, so I thought I'd post and see what the community thinks.

I'm thinking about putting together a Lahman-style database for the minor leagues (initially probably just the higher level leagues - PCL, IL and AA). I would guess that there would be interest in this sort of thing for historical leagues (my URB league uses the framework of the db already).

My question to Markus was whether it would be possible to import the players out of the database and have the sim adjust for the lower quality of play in those leagues, or if it would need to be manually adjusted (which is what I currently do using Bill James' Minor League Equivalencies).

I've been playing OOTP since v2 and am looking to give back to the community in a meaningful way.

Seems like a nice idea

ifspuds · 02-15-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

Didn't LGO already start doing something like this?

Not to discourage you, mind you - the more, the merrier!

It was started, but it's more or less dead. Not enough people working on it, I think.

Le Grande Orange · 02-16-2006, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifspuds

It was started, but it's more or less dead. Not enough people working on it, I think.

More or less, that was the reason. Plus co-ordinating everyone, getting folks to send in the raw stats and getting folks to enter it into Excel, etc. It eventually lost steam.

I still think the best way is for someone with TSN or Spalding Guides to scan in directly the player stats pages using OCR software, rather than making an image scan and then having others type out the data from the image scan into Excel or what have you.

OCR will convert the scan directly into a text file, and eliminates the typing out phase - a considerable reduction in time and effort right there.

All I know is, if I had a good collection of TSN Guides, I'd be more than willing to take 'em apart as necessary in order to get the pages perfectly flat on the scanner so as to get a good-quality OCR scan done. Getting the data into digital form is, to me, is very much worth it, even if it meant having to disassemble the books and ruining their potential resale value.

Sadly, I do not have such a collection of Guides. I wish I did...

Le Grande Orange · 02-16-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. It would start off to include just the PCL, AA and IL, but would eventually include the second-tier leagues (Southern League, Texas League, Eastern League and so on). I have the material needed to do it...

You're a very fortunate fellow then, because I sure wish I had that info onhand. But at least my schedule efforts have met with good success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

I was just wondering if a) people thought it worthwhile and b) whether or not some sort of import structure could be put into the new version to avoid having to normalize the statistics prior to import (which is what I do now).

For me, the first, and most vital step, is just getting the stats into a digital form, even if that's little more than a simple spreadsheet layout of the stats in Excel. Once the data is digital form, it can always then be maniuplated into other forms as needed without that much difficulty.

swampdragon · 02-16-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. It would start off to include just the PCL, AA and IL, but would eventually include the second-tier leagues (Southern League, Texas League, Eastern League and so on). I have the material needed to do it; I was just wondering if a) people thought it worthwhile and b) whether or not some sort of import structure could be put into the new version to avoid having to normalize the statistics prior to import (which is what I do now).

Worthwhile is an understatement. I would certainly use it.

legendsport · 02-17-2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

You're a very fortunate fellow then, because I sure wish I had that info onhand. But at least my schedule efforts have met with good success.

For me, the first, and most vital step, is just getting the stats into a digital form, even if that's little more than a simple spreadsheet layout of the stats in Excel. Once the data is digital form, it can always then be maniuplated into other forms as needed without that much difficulty.

I agree 100% - just getting the info out of the books and into digital form is a massive project. That's why I was thinking the best way to do it would be to start with the AAA leagues and then work "backwards" down the levels so to speak.

The scan idea is a great one, but I've spent so much money putting together my collection of guides that I don't think I'd have the intestinal fortitude to destroy them (plus I promised my wife I would sell them after the project is finished - it's been a several hundred $$ expenditure).

Splitter24 · 02-17-2006, 07:28 AM

Yes. The day my Spalding, Reach and TSN Guides get hacked up is the day they spread my ashes. Even then I'd come back and kick the perp's a**.

The demise of the first two attempts at the Minor League Database Project is as much my fault as anybody else's, seeing as how I was supposed to provide the stats. I just haven't had the time to do it.

Dan Theman · 02-17-2006, 08:09 AM

I love th notion behind it. I wish I knew better how the new version would handle something like it and whether the equivalencies could somehow be built into the import, but ostensibly speaking it sounds like it would be a great idea if it did work.

One general concern - while I also don't play historical leagues, I still wonder whether the enhancements and the increase in ratings & stats that are tracked in the new version will increase the risk of imports straying more drastically from the career paths of the players they're supposed to be emulating. I'm not sure whether this is an issue for people because I'm a fictional guy myself (whoa .... that's kind of a deep statement), but I just figured I'd throw that out there.

RchW · 02-17-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

I agree 100% - just getting the info out of the books and into digital form is a massive project. That's why I was thinking the best way to do it would be to start with the AAA leagues and then work "backwards" down the levels so to speak.

The scan idea is a great one, but I've spent so much money putting together my collection of guides that I don't think I'd have the intestinal fortitude to destroy them (plus I promised my wife I would sell them after the project is finished - it's been a several hundred $$ expenditure).

There are hand scanners available specifically designed to work with books/magazine sizes.

How much money would you want for these? Consider me interested.

legendsport · 02-17-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

How much money would you want for these? Consider me interested.

Well, to be honest, I hope to keep the books. The idea of selling them after the project was really just to placate my wife.

If I do sell 'em, I'll do it on e-bay most likely (which is where I bought 'em in the first place). If you're interested in buying some, I suggest trying that venue - just search on sporting news baseball guide.

statfreak · 02-17-2006, 11:49 AM

I would be extremely interested in a minor league database regardless if it were supported by OOTP or not.

Le Grande Orange · 02-17-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legendsport

The scan idea is a great one, but I've spent so much money putting together my collection of guides that I don't think I'd have the intestinal fortitude to destroy them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitter24

Yes. The day my Spalding, Reach and TSN Guides get hacked up is the day they spread my ashes.

And I understand those thoughts completely.

Me, I'm ruthless if I get my teeth fully into an idea, so I'd probably go ahead and do what was necessary if I got fully committed into getting the stats into digital form.

As a general thought, it still may be possible to OCR scan the info straight out of the Guides — it all depends on how good your scanner and OCR software is, and in how much you're able to get the pages to lie flat on the scanner without seriously damaging the books.

I know I still need to do some tests on the gear I have to see if I can OCR scan the pages from the International League stats book I have.

The hand scanner idea mentioned by RchW may be worth investigating too.

02-15-2006, 11:21 AM	#1
legendsport Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 2,933	Minor League Database interest I sent a PM to Markus, but didn't hear back from him, so I thought I'd post and see what the community thinks. I'm thinking about putting together a Lahman-style database for the minor leagues (initially probably just the higher level leagues - PCL, IL and AA). I would guess that there would be interest in this sort of thing for historical leagues (my URB league uses the framework of the db already). My question to Markus was whether it would be possible to import the players out of the database and have the sim adjust for the lower quality of play in those leagues, or if it would need to be manually adjusted (which is what I currently do using Bill James' Minor League Equivalencies). I've been playing OOTP since v2 and am looking to give back to the community in a meaningful way. __________________ Hexed & Countered on YouTube Figment League - A fictional history of baseball, basketball, football, hockey & more! Want to join in the fun? Shoot me a PM! Read the story of the Barrell Family - A Figment Baseball tale Same Song, Different Tune - The Barrells in the Modern Era

02-15-2006, 12:08 PM	#5
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,117	Are you talking about setting up a historical database of minor league players? There was a short-lived movement to do this a while back, but I think the effort died off due to a lack of people working diligently at it. There was someone (maybe two people) scanning stats from print sources and LGO was sending out pages for people to do the data entry. I was involved on the data entry front. I still think it'd be a fantastic idea if there were enough people that could dedicate a lot of time to it. I know I'm not the only one that would like to run a historically accurate PCL simulation. __________________ Jeff Watson Former dynasty writer and online league player, now mostly retired

02-15-2006, 12:18 PM	#7
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,117	I don't think there's any doubt that it would be worthwhile. I'd love it, and I'm pretty sure I'm far from the only one. __________________ Jeff Watson Former dynasty writer and online league player, now mostly retired

02-15-2006, 12:42 PM	#8
eriqjaffe Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Under The Christmas Fish Posts: 7,731	Didn't LGO already start doing something like this? Not to discourage you, mind you - the more, the merrier! __________________

02-17-2006, 07:28 AM	#15
Splitter24 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Willsboro, NY Posts: 2,895	Yes. The day my Spalding, Reach and TSN Guides get hacked up is the day they spread my ashes. Even then I'd come back and kick the perp's a**. The demise of the first two attempts at the Minor League Database Project is as much my fault as anybody else's, seeing as how I was supposed to provide the stats. I just haven't had the time to do it. __________________ Currently Reading: The Sympathizer by Viet Thanh Nguyen "Well, the game is afoot. I’ll take anal bum cover for 7,000." - "Sean Connery" SNL Celebrity Jeopardy R.I.P. Tommy Holmes 1917-2008

02-15-2006, 11:29 AM	#2
Erik All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 505	Excuse my ignorance but this confuses me. Would someone use this database in place of the Lahman database?

02-17-2006, 11:49 AM	#19
statfreak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 2,434	I would be extremely interested in a minor league database regardless if it were supported by OOTP or not. __________________ Roll out the barrel!