Customization vs. MLB model

UngratefulDead · 12-28-2005, 03:44 AM

I'd like to find out the majority opinion on this without cluttering up Markus's thread. Please keep all debate friendly.

EDIT: Meant to make the votes public, but I hope we're all mature enough not to vote with aliases.

Skipaway · 12-28-2005, 04:09 AM

If customization was considered the strength of this game, I think the poll would naturally bias toward that?

Sweed · 12-28-2005, 05:45 AM

For me at least you left out an option that I would prefer to vote for.

" a more accurate real world model"

I want to play in a real world environment. I look forward to interacting with the leagues around the world and having talented players finding their way to my major leagues rather than just appearing in a draft file.

I have nothing against customization but, in my case, would only use it for one thing. That would be to recreate historic type leagues, ie, 1965 MLB pre division and league championship series where the first place teams from each league (AL-NL) went to the world series.

I don't see this being the huge issue that some are making it out to be. I think the way Markus has designed the game that adding leagues and league structures isn't really going to be a big deal.

So I'll vote for the real mlb only because a real world model isn't available, though I don't see why one precludes having the other.

canadiancreed · 12-28-2005, 05:52 AM

myself I vote for having as much customization as possible. There's enough MLB based leagues out there for everyone to select from, but what turely extends the gameplay for myself at least is the ability to change any part of the game that I wish. It coudl be different eras, locations, leagues, even realities. Havign such ability is what makes OOTP a superior product over ti's competition, and was the reason why I chose it over games like BBM back in the day.

spleen1015 · 12-28-2005, 08:52 AM

I think overall they are equally important.

SSG Troyer · 12-28-2005, 08:59 AM

Customization all the way.

I want to play real baseball in a fictional world. I set up my own leagues, teams, stadiums, schedules ... the works. OOTP has always allowed me to play the game I want to play, not some pre-defined "real-world" setup, and that is one aspect of it that keeps me coming back.

treedom · 12-28-2005, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSG Troyer

Customization all the way.

I want to play real baseball in a fictional world. I set up my own leagues, teams, stadiums, schedules ... the works. OOTP has always allowed me to play the game I want to play, not some pre-defined "real-world" setup, and that is one aspect of it that keeps me coming back.

^^^ What he said.

raf105 · 12-28-2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSG Troyer

Customization all the way.

I want to play real baseball in a fictional world. I set up my own leagues, teams, stadiums, schedules ... the works. OOTP has always allowed me to play the game I want to play, not some pre-defined "real-world" setup, and that is one aspect of it that keeps me coming back.

I completely agree.

Malleus Dei · 12-28-2005, 01:04 PM

This is a sham poll; it isn't either-or.

I want both an accurate MLB model, which the game still doesn't have, AND customization.

But, having read what some of you are asking for, it's no wonder that there isn't an accurate MLB model. After this sham poll, there may never be one.

Malleus Dei · 12-28-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSG Troyer

I want to play real baseball in a fictional world. I set up my own leagues, teams, stadiums, schedules ... the works. OOTP has always allowed me to play the game I want to play, not some pre-defined "real-world" setup, and that is one aspect of it that keeps me coming back.

Straw man. No one has been arguing against that.

The question that is at the root of this poll is which do you want:

1. An accurate MLB model (no, not an MLB straightjacket, just an accurate set of MLB rules)

or,

2. The World League of Soccer transported to OOTP.

I see (1) as crucial and (2) as trivial. However, there are so many youngsters here who are infatuated with the other idea that we are likely to see (2) instead of (1).

andymac · 12-28-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Straw man. No one has been arguing against that.

The question that is at the root of this poll is which do you want:

1. An accurate MLB model (no, not an MLB straightjacket, just an accurate set of MLB rules)

or,

2. The World League of Soccer transported to OOTP.

I see (1) as crucial and (2) as trivial. However, there are so many youngsters here who are infatuated with the other idea that we are likely to see (2) instead of (1).

You just did the same thing SSG Troyer did, but in the other extreme.

Your #2 option is a bad summarization of what the customization is meant to do. How do you think half of the current MLB players were acquired by their team? Sammy Sosa, Miguel Tejada, and Pedro Martinez were not drafted...they were signed out of their native countries as amatuer free agents. This is the type of thing that the worldwide customization is hoping to accomplish.

Malleus Dei · 12-28-2005, 01:24 PM

I'm not going to argue on with you guys. Despite all of the seemingly obligatory unnecessary and against-the-rules personal cracks that get made here whenever I point out things that the majority doesn't want to consider, I'm neither a racist nor insular (I have been to every continent, and I go overseas at least once every year and usually go to the Caribbean, which someone somehow thinks I am ignorant of, every single year). But OOTP can't even do simple in-game expansion yet and some of you want the World League of Baseball to be the design focus instead? Think it through, guys.

"Just because they're yelling at you doesn't mean you are wrong." - Richie Garcia, MLB.

sporr · 12-28-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

Your #2 option is a bad summarization of what the customization is meant to do. How do you think half of the current MLB players were acquired by their team? Sammy Sosa, Miguel Tejada, and Pedro Martinez were not drafted...they were signed out of their native countries as amatuer free agents. This is the type of thing that the worldwide customization is hoping to accomplish.

This point is exactly right.

UngratefulDead · 12-28-2005, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

This is a sham poll; it isn't either-or.

I want both an accurate MLB model, which the game still doesn't have, AND customization.

But, having read what some of you are asking for, it's no wonder that there isn't an accurate MLB model. After this sham poll, there may never be one.

Well, I'm sorry you feel it's a sham poll, but it does seem to be pretty clear that people prefer maximum customization to the most accurate MLB model.

Riverdome · 12-28-2005, 03:39 PM

[QUOTE=Malleus Dei]But OOTP can't even do simple in-game expansion yet and some of you want the World League of Baseball to be the design focus instead? QUOTE]

Now let's be fair, in game expansion must not be so simple or it would already be in the game. Should it be focused on before any sort of world series type feature, debatable but I think so. But I can also see the other side of the coin that says once we all create 20 unique leagues running concurently in our baseball universe a world series type feature becomes more exciting. Could the Toyko Tikes beat the mighty NY Yankees?

"In Markus we trust" - unknown

tim_uwrf · 12-28-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

1. An accurate MLB model (no, not an MLB straightjacket, just an accurate set of MLB rules)

Since I'm ignorant to the rules of baseball, what does OOTP not accurately portray? Please enlighten us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

(I have been to every continent, and I go overseas at least once every year and usually go to the Caribbean, which someone somehow thinks I am ignorant of, every single year).

That reminds me of a couple of jokes...

I'm not racist, I have a color T.V.
I'm not racist, I drive a black truck.

BaseballMan · 12-28-2005, 04:03 PM

Wouldnt customization include MLB models if you wanted it?
I mean i can expand in 1961 or 1958 with the current version though
it is a manual process.
But i would like to see the game make choices on players to drop and have an automatic expansion draft and have starting franchise fees etc etc.
But with customization, wouldnt you be able to set your model up based on MLB, Union Association, National Association, or Fictional World leagues or am i missing something? I just dont see what the big deal is.
I would like the game to be able to customize the rules you use for your league. Like if you start with 19th century historical player's you could use the rules they played by like 8 strikes for a K and 9 balls for a walk, whther a walk is counted as a hit or not. But i wouldnt know how much programming this would take or if it is possible, but overall i would have to lean towards customization.

Kivlehan · 12-28-2005, 04:04 PM

I like customization. I like everything I am reading about the new version in terms of the Baseball Universe. Very exciting.

Exodor · 12-28-2005, 04:15 PM

Voted MLB.

I want to be able to recreate the MLB league structure and run leagues both with real players and fictional. I will never create any wacky 'world leagues' or anything to deviates from MLB, so the customization options are nice but totally unimportant to my OOTP leagues.

Get the MLB structure right first, then worry about giving players the ability to create world leagues with 10 divisions.

battists · 12-28-2005, 04:58 PM

I think one of the difficult points of this discussion lies in the relationship between "what would be nice" and "what Markus has time for." My guess is, there are a thousand things that Markus or his customers would like to see in the game. For Markus, it ultimately must come down to a balance between development time and result (risk/reward).

For example, when Markus was working on patches for 6.5, there may have been bugs that would have taken 2 weeks to fix, and would have potentially impacted other areas as well. In those cases, if the bug was minor enough that the overall game was still functional, he probably elected not to do that fix. (Understanding, and probably being frustrated, all the while that the bug was hurting SOMEONE.)

Another example: Markus has indicated an interest in supporting a World Championship or some such, but has flat-out told us it can't happen because of the amount of coding required, and the time before this product needs to be released.

I imagine the same sorts of decisions happen every step along the way, for example, when electing what parts of the MLB system to implement. Clearly in 6.5 there were limitations in the engine, or time, that made it impossible to implement draft pick compensation, for example.

If Markus has a choice between these two options:

- implementing 98% of the MLB rules, plus customization and 4 other things that people are rabid for
- implementing 100% of the MLB rules, but no customization or other things

My guess is he would probably go for the former, just based on the strong support he has received from the community on the topic of customization.

My point is, for Markus, it's not a pure question of "Which would be better," it's a combination of that together with the effects of development time and resource constraints. Just my 2 cents tho'.

View Poll Results: Which of these is more important to you with OOTPBM
Customization	136	73.91%
A more accurate MLB model	48	26.09%
Voters: 184. You may not vote on this poll

12-28-2005, 03:44 AM	#1
UngratefulDead Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 3,415	Customization vs. MLB model I'd like to find out the majority opinion on this without cluttering up Markus's thread. Please keep all debate friendly. EDIT: Meant to make the votes public, but I hope we're all mature enough not to vote with aliases. Last edited by UngratefulDead; 12-28-2005 at 03:47 AM.

12-28-2005, 05:52 AM	#4
canadiancreed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 11,660	myself I vote for having as much customization as possible. There's enough MLB based leagues out there for everyone to select from, but what turely extends the gameplay for myself at least is the ability to change any part of the game that I wish. It coudl be different eras, locations, leagues, even realities. Havign such ability is what makes OOTP a superior product over ti's competition, and was the reason why I chose it over games like BBM back in the day. __________________ PT21 PT22

12-28-2005, 08:59 AM	#6
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	Customization all the way. I want to play real baseball in a fictional world. I set up my own leagues, teams, stadiums, schedules ... the works. OOTP has always allowed me to play the game I want to play, not some pre-defined "real-world" setup, and that is one aspect of it that keeps me coming back. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

12-28-2005, 03:39 PM	#15
Riverdome All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 964	[QUOTE=Malleus Dei]But OOTP can't even do simple in-game expansion yet and some of you want the World League of Baseball to be the design focus instead? QUOTE] Now let's be fair, in game expansion must not be so simple or it would already be in the game. Should it be focused on before any sort of world series type feature, debatable but I think so. But I can also see the other side of the coin that says once we all create 20 unique leagues running concurently in our baseball universe a world series type feature becomes more exciting. Could the Toyko Tikes beat the mighty NY Yankees? "In Markus we trust" - unknown __________________ I was at the first OOTP Conference, where were you?..........

12-28-2005, 04:09 AM	#2
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	If customization was considered the strength of this game, I think the poll would naturally bias toward that? __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-28-2005, 05:45 AM	#3
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 7,072	For me at least you left out an option that I would prefer to vote for. " a more accurate real world model" I want to play in a real world environment. I look forward to interacting with the leagues around the world and having talented players finding their way to my major leagues rather than just appearing in a draft file. I have nothing against customization but, in my case, would only use it for one thing. That would be to recreate historic type leagues, ie, 1965 MLB pre division and league championship series where the first place teams from each league (AL-NL) went to the world series. I don't see this being the huge issue that some are making it out to be. I think the way Markus has designed the game that adding leagues and league structures isn't really going to be a big deal. So I'll vote for the real mlb only because a real world model isn't available, though I don't see why one precludes having the other.

12-28-2005, 08:52 AM	#5
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	I think overall they are equally important.

12-28-2005, 04:03 PM	#17
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	Wouldnt customization include MLB models if you wanted it? I mean i can expand in 1961 or 1958 with the current version though it is a manual process. But i would like to see the game make choices on players to drop and have an automatic expansion draft and have starting franchise fees etc etc. But with customization, wouldnt you be able to set your model up based on MLB, Union Association, National Association, or Fictional World leagues or am i missing something? I just dont see what the big deal is. I would like the game to be able to customize the rules you use for your league. Like if you start with 19th century historical player's you could use the rules they played by like 8 strikes for a K and 9 balls for a walk, whther a walk is counted as a hit or not. But i wouldnt know how much programming this would take or if it is possible, but overall i would have to lean towards customization.

12-28-2005, 04:04 PM	#18
Kivlehan Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Allentown, PA Posts: 160	I like customization. I like everything I am reading about the new version in terms of the Baseball Universe. Very exciting.

12-28-2005, 04:15 PM	#19
Exodor Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 481	Voted MLB. I want to be able to recreate the MLB league structure and run leagues both with real players and fictional. I will never create any wacky 'world leagues' or anything to deviates from MLB, so the customization options are nice but totally unimportant to my OOTP leagues. Get the MLB structure right first, then worry about giving players the ability to create world leagues with 10 divisions.

12-28-2005, 04:58 PM	#20
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	I think one of the difficult points of this discussion lies in the relationship between "what would be nice" and "what Markus has time for." My guess is, there are a thousand things that Markus or his customers would like to see in the game. For Markus, it ultimately must come down to a balance between development time and result (risk/reward). For example, when Markus was working on patches for 6.5, there may have been bugs that would have taken 2 weeks to fix, and would have potentially impacted other areas as well. In those cases, if the bug was minor enough that the overall game was still functional, he probably elected not to do that fix. (Understanding, and probably being frustrated, all the while that the bug was hurting SOMEONE.) Another example: Markus has indicated an interest in supporting a World Championship or some such, but has flat-out told us it can't happen because of the amount of coding required, and the time before this product needs to be released. I imagine the same sorts of decisions happen every step along the way, for example, when electing what parts of the MLB system to implement. Clearly in 6.5 there were limitations in the engine, or time, that made it impossible to implement draft pick compensation, for example. If Markus has a choice between these two options: - implementing 98% of the MLB rules, plus customization and 4 other things that people are rabid for - implementing 100% of the MLB rules, but no customization or other things My guess is he would probably go for the former, just based on the strong support he has received from the community on the topic of customization. My point is, for Markus, it's not a pure question of "Which would be better," it's a combination of that together with the effects of development time and resource constraints. Just my 2 cents tho'.