The Case for Bert

darkhorse · 09-06-2002, 03:16 PM

Why is Rik Aalbert Blyleven not a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. He hasn't come close to election yet and his career numbers are superb. If Bert were an ex-Yankee I doubt I would be posing this question, but he spent most of his career with the unfashionable Twins and Indians.

The Case for Bert

slic1149 · 09-06-2002, 03:27 PM

I agree 100%, Bert Blyleven belongs in the Hall of Fame.

LivnLegend · 09-06-2002, 03:31 PM

I thought he'd get in eventually, especially after Sutton got elected.
If Blyleven had 13 more careeer wins (300) he'd probably be in by now.

JML · 09-06-2002, 06:01 PM

Whenever I hear a broadcaster talk about some kid having the best big, overhand curve around, they almost always mention Blyleven, and compare the kid's hook to Bert's (I know Zito was one of the comparisons). He also happens to be a great broadcaster. When I first moved to MN in '98 and started listening to him, I thought he was a little too cocky, and maybe too smart-ass (note: I think smart-assism is a wonderful trait, just not when it's too over the top.) But since then I've found him to be intelligent, with a playfully self-deprecating style. But I digress...

When a guy is considered by many to have possessed the greatest curveball of all time, and puts up the numbers Bert did, he's a lock in my book.

twins15 · 09-06-2002, 07:12 PM

I also listen to many many broadcasts with Dick something, cant't remember his name, and Bert Blyleven. He is a very good announcer.

Killebrew · 09-06-2002, 07:45 PM

I like Bert but 287 wins in 22 years of playing averages out to 13 wins a year. In his 22 seasons he was a regular starter in all but one year (1982 with Cleveland), so if career length & durability were the most important HOF requirements then he should be in, but if being a dominant pitcher of an era was a requirement then I'm not so sure. Although he was among the top 5 in certain stats several times during his career, I don't recall him ever being considered among the top 5 pitchers - maybe among the top 10 pitchers during a season or two.

Not saying this to controversial though - I was and am a big Blyleven fan when he was with the Twinkies (think I have his 1974 autograph even) and would be thrilled to see him in the hall.

EDIT: wow - looking at Berts bbref page makes me reconsider - wowza:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

Code:

Black Ink: Pitching - 16 (Average HOFer ~ 40) 
Gray Ink: Pitching - 239 (Average HOFer ~ 185) 
HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50) 
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 113.5 (Likely HOFer > 100) 

Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank 
Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard. 


Similar Pitchers View in Pop-up 
Don Sutton (914) * 
Gaylord Perry (909) * 
Fergie Jenkins (890) * 
Tommy John (889) 
Robin Roberts (876) * 
Tom Seaver (864) * 
Jim Kaat (854) 
Early Wynn (844) * 
Phil Niekro (844) * 
Steve Carlton (840) *

holyroller · 09-07-2002, 04:42 AM

And let's get Gary Carter in there as well!

toanstrom · 09-13-2002, 04:15 AM

Dont forget Sweet Lou Whitaker

Black Ink: Batting - 1 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 31 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 42.8 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 92.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank
Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard.

Similar Batters View in Pop-up
Ryne Sandberg (900)
Alan Trammell (868)
Brian Downing (856)
Roberto Alomar (851)
Buddy Bell (851)
Joe Morgan (849) *
Joe Torre (844)
Ted Simmons (814)
Bobby Grich (810)
Bobby Doerr (807) *

Not shabby for a strong defensive second baseman in an era when second basemen were guys like Glenn Hubbard.

edit- if you need more proof check out his win share totals.

blubbla · 09-13-2002, 11:27 AM

I'm on the push for Andre Dawson.

Get a load of this:

Black Ink: Batting - 11 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 164 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 43.7 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 117.5 (Likely HOFer > 100)

Similar Batters
Billy Williams (892) *
Tony Perez (886) *
Dave Parker (865)
Al Kaline (859) *
Harold Baines (851)
Dwight Evans (834)
Ernie Banks (829) *
Dave Winfield (827) *
Vada Pinson (810)
Rafael Palmeiro (809)

Don't forget how long he played in pain with those shot knees, and how productive he still was.

blubbla · 09-13-2002, 11:31 AM

I'll also add that from age 30 to age 40, Dawson's seasons were most comperable to Dave Winfield.

Kezzek · 09-13-2002, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killebrew
EDIT: wow - looking at Berts bbref page makes me reconsider - wowza:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

Code:

Black Ink: Pitching - 16 (Average HOFer ~ 40) Gray Ink: Pitching - 239 (Average HOFer ~ 185) HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Pitching - 113.5 (Likely HOFer > 100) Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard. Similar Pitchers View in Pop-up Don Sutton (914) * Gaylord Perry (909) * Fergie Jenkins (890) * Tommy John (889) Robin Roberts (876) * Tom Seaver (864) * Jim Kaat (854) Early Wynn (844) * Phil Niekro (844) * Steve Carlton (840) *

Notice the OTHER prominent Twins pitcher who stands out in that list with no HOF asterisk...

Jim Kaat

Code:

Black Ink: Pitching - 19 (Average HOFer ~ 40) 
Gray Ink: Pitching - 128 (Average HOFer ~ 185) 
HOF Standards: Pitching - 44.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50) 
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 120.5 (Likely HOFer > 100) 

Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank 
Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard. 


Similar Pitchers View in Pop-up 
Tommy John (923) 
Robin Roberts (917) * 
Fergie Jenkins (891) * 
Eppa Rixey (875) * 
Bert Blyleven (854) 
Early Wynn (849) * 
Burleigh Grimes (846) * 
Frank Tanana (845) 
Red Ruffing (839) * 
Ted Lyons (837) *

Kaat and Blyleven are BOTH hugely deserving of the Hall of Fame.

Jason Moyer · 09-13-2002, 12:55 PM

Interesting Blyleven statistics:

Win Shares: 339
Wins: 287

Blyleven's career W %: .534
Blyleven's teams W %: .504

All of his numbers are very comparable to Steve Carlton, except Carlton played for much better teams for most of his career. He had a career 3.31 ERA vs a park-adjusted league average 3.90, Carlton had a 3.22 vs 3.70. Steve struckout 400 more guys in 300 more innings. Blyleven walked 500 fewer people. Steve played in front of significantly better defenses than Bert did, and had run support.

If Bert had pitched for a better team in 1973, it's possible he would have gone 30-7 instead of 20-17 (2.52 ERA vs LgERA 3.98 in 325 IP). In 1976 he throws 297.7 innings with a 2.87 ERA vs a LgERA of 3.60 but ends up 13-16.

Jason

Specs · 09-16-2002, 07:57 PM

I dunno, that whole career ending injury in 1978 kinda diminished his career, eh Paul?

fantom1979 · 09-17-2002, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toanstrom
Dont forget Sweet Lou Whitaker

If sweet Lou gets into the Hall of Fame I might just go on a rampage. I watched Lou here in Detroit of 15 years, wishing everyday that they would trade him. He was a whiny cry baby and lucky for him he was on quite a few good sparky anderson teams to prop him up. He might be my least favorite player of all time.

fantom1979 · 09-17-2002, 02:49 PM

Speaking of Blyleven, why isnt Tommy John in the hall of fame?

288-231 3.34

Chappy · 09-19-2002, 08:59 AM

Hey, I was about to say that.

It is the Hall of FAME, and I've never heard of Bert Blyleven surgery.

Besides, John had similar career stats to many HOF'ers and he invented the comeback.

CubsFan · 09-19-2002, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chappy

It is the Hall of FAME, and I've never heard of Bert Blyleven surgery.

Funny stuff. Best reason yet for Bert.

P.S.--My 100th post--only took me about 2 years!

drprestwood · 12-05-2005, 02:22 PM

Here's a great website that appeared in...I think bat-girl...today.

http://www.bertbelongs.com/

Dagrims · 12-05-2005, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drprestwood

Here's a great website that appeared in...I think bat-girl...today.

http://www.bertbelongs.com/

Interesting site, but some questionable stats and narrative used. Comparing his runs given up to Don Sutton's total as justification is odd.

eriqjaffe · 12-05-2005, 03:52 PM

Ernie is marginal, at best.

I agree that Blyleven (and Tommy John) should be in the HOF.

09-06-2002, 03:16 PM	#1
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	The Case for Bert Why is Rik Aalbert Blyleven not a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. He hasn't come close to election yet and his career numbers are superb. If Bert were an ex-Yankee I doubt I would be posing this question, but he spent most of his career with the unfashionable Twins and Indians. The Case for Bert __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

09-06-2002, 03:27 PM	#2
slic1149 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 348	I agree 100%, Bert Blyleven belongs in the Hall of Fame. __________________ To laugh often and love much, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to give one's self, this is to have succeeded. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

09-06-2002, 03:31 PM	#3
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	I thought he'd get in eventually, especially after Sutton got elected. If Blyleven had 13 more careeer wins (300) he'd probably be in by now. __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

09-06-2002, 06:01 PM	#4
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Whenever I hear a broadcaster talk about some kid having the best big, overhand curve around, they almost always mention Blyleven, and compare the kid's hook to Bert's (I know Zito was one of the comparisons). He also happens to be a great broadcaster. When I first moved to MN in '98 and started listening to him, I thought he was a little too cocky, and maybe too smart-ass (note: I think smart-assism is a wonderful trait, just not when it's too over the top.) But since then I've found him to be intelligent, with a playfully self-deprecating style. But I digress... When a guy is considered by many to have possessed the greatest curveball of all time, and puts up the numbers Bert did, he's a lock in my book. Last edited by JML; 09-06-2002 at 06:07 PM.

09-06-2002, 07:12 PM	#5
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	I also listen to many many broadcasts with Dick something, cant't remember his name, and Bert Blyleven. He is a very good announcer. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

09-06-2002, 07:45 PM	#6
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	I like Bert but 287 wins in 22 years of playing averages out to 13 wins a year. In his 22 seasons he was a regular starter in all but one year (1982 with Cleveland), so if career length & durability were the most important HOF requirements then he should be in, but if being a dominant pitcher of an era was a requirement then I'm not so sure. Although he was among the top 5 in certain stats several times during his career, I don't recall him ever being considered among the top 5 pitchers - maybe among the top 10 pitchers during a season or two. Not saying this to controversial though - I was and am a big Blyleven fan when he was with the Twinkies (think I have his 1974 autograph even) and would be thrilled to see him in the hall. EDIT: wow - looking at Berts bbref page makes me reconsider - wowza: http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml Code: Black Ink: Pitching - 16 (Average HOFer ~ 40) Gray Ink: Pitching - 239 (Average HOFer ~ 185) HOF Standards: Pitching - 50.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Pitching - 113.5 (Likely HOFer > 100) Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard. Similar Pitchers View in Pop-up Don Sutton (914) * Gaylord Perry (909) * Fergie Jenkins (890) * Tommy John (889) Robin Roberts (876) * Tom Seaver (864) * Jim Kaat (854) Early Wynn (844) * Phil Niekro (844) * Steve Carlton (840) * Last edited by Killebrew; 09-06-2002 at 07:52 PM.

09-07-2002, 04:42 AM	#7
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	And let's get Gary Carter in there as well! __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

09-13-2002, 04:15 AM	#8
toanstrom Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 277	Dont forget Sweet Lou Whitaker Black Ink: Batting - 1 (Average HOFer ~ 27) Gray Ink: Batting - 31 (Average HOFer ~ 144) HOF Standards: Batting - 42.8 (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 92.0 (Likely HOFer > 100) Act.- Denotes rank among active players, Car. - Denotes career rank Click on the Car, Act or Year to see the career, active, or league leaderboard. Similar Batters View in Pop-up Ryne Sandberg (900) Alan Trammell (868) Brian Downing (856) Roberto Alomar (851) Buddy Bell (851) Joe Morgan (849) * Joe Torre (844) Ted Simmons (814) Bobby Grich (810) Bobby Doerr (807) * Not shabby for a strong defensive second baseman in an era when second basemen were guys like Glenn Hubbard. edit- if you need more proof check out his win share totals. Last edited by toanstrom; 09-13-2002 at 04:21 AM.

09-13-2002, 11:27 AM	#9
blubbla Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Herscher, IL Posts: 2,458	I'm on the push for Andre Dawson. Get a load of this: Black Ink: Batting - 11 (Average HOFer ~ 27) Gray Ink: Batting - 164 (Average HOFer ~ 144) HOF Standards: Batting - 43.7 (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 117.5 (Likely HOFer > 100) Similar Batters Billy Williams (892) * Tony Perez (886) * Dave Parker (865) Al Kaline (859) * Harold Baines (851) Dwight Evans (834) Ernie Banks (829) * Dave Winfield (827) * Vada Pinson (810) Rafael Palmeiro (809) Don't forget how long he played in pain with those shot knees, and how productive he still was.

09-13-2002, 11:31 AM	#10
blubbla Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Herscher, IL Posts: 2,458	I'll also add that from age 30 to age 40, Dawson's seasons were most comperable to Dave Winfield.

09-13-2002, 12:55 PM	#12
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,106	Interesting Blyleven statistics: Win Shares: 339 Wins: 287 Blyleven's career W %: .534 Blyleven's teams W %: .504 All of his numbers are very comparable to Steve Carlton, except Carlton played for much better teams for most of his career. He had a career 3.31 ERA vs a park-adjusted league average 3.90, Carlton had a 3.22 vs 3.70. Steve struckout 400 more guys in 300 more innings. Blyleven walked 500 fewer people. Steve played in front of significantly better defenses than Bert did, and had run support. If Bert had pitched for a better team in 1973, it's possible he would have gone 30-7 instead of 20-17 (2.52 ERA vs LgERA 3.98 in 325 IP). In 1976 he throws 297.7 innings with a 2.87 ERA vs a LgERA of 3.60 but ends up 13-16. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 09-13-2002 at 01:00 PM.

09-17-2002, 02:49 PM	#15
fantom1979 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 3,498	Speaking of Blyleven, why isnt Tommy John in the hall of fame? 288-231 3.34 __________________

09-19-2002, 08:59 AM	#16
Chappy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 2,721	Hey, I was about to say that. It is the Hall of FAME, and I've never heard of Bert Blyleven surgery. Besides, John had similar career stats to many HOF'ers and he invented the comeback. __________________ NPBL - Pennsylvania Freedom AFBL - North Carolina Aviators MLB-Pro - Kansas City Royals

12-05-2005, 02:22 PM	#18
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	Here's a great website that appeared in...I think bat-girl...today. http://www.bertbelongs.com/

12-05-2005, 03:52 PM	#20
eriqjaffe Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Under The Christmas Fish Posts: 7,731	Ernie is marginal, at best. I agree that Blyleven (and Tommy John) should be in the HOF. __________________