Al Leiter

rem · 07-10-2005, 06:14 PM

Al Leiter has really only had one bad (or even average for the most part) year (1994) aside from this year and possibly 1997. It's a shame that his career got off to a late start and he never really pitched that many innings, otherwise we'd probably be looking at him as a HOFer.

Gastric ReFlux · 07-10-2005, 06:17 PM

I don't know about that. Leiter always had trouble with his control, and that's what gave him his late start. Even then, he never had really good control, with a walk rate of over 4 per 9 innings.

mlyons · 07-10-2005, 06:30 PM

Yeah, it's tough to give a guy credit for a late start to his career when the reason his career got off to a pretty rough start is that he wasn't very good until he turned 27 or so. It's not like he was blocked in the minors or anything. He was given plenty of opportunities to succeed at the big league level and just wasn't able to make the most of them.

LeiterFanatic · 07-10-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

He was given plenty of opportunities to succeed at the big league level and just wasn't able to make the most of them.

You mean 1988? When he had Beckett blisters on his middle finger? Or maybe 1989, when Dallas Green let him throw 162 piches and ruined his rotator cuff? Or maybe the ulner nerve problem in his elbow from 1990 to 1991?
Look, I'm not to most unbiased Leiter observer, but to chalk it up to him "blowing opportunites" is just not the case. Prone to injury, yeah, hell yeah. But he has never been one not to pitch to the occasion when healthy ( except this year).

As for HOF? I just don't see it... even if he didnt get hurt, he only won 17 games in one year, 16 in another and then the Wins go down from there. A fun guy and my favorite player, but now HOF material. Even in MY imagination.

mlyons · 07-10-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

You mean 1988? When he had Beckett blisters on his middle finger? Or maybe 1989, when Dallas Green let him throw 162 piches and ruined his rotator cuff? Or maybe the ulner nerve problem in his elbow from 1990 to 1991?
Look, I'm not to most unbiased Leiter observer, but to chalk it up to him "blowing opportunites" is just not the case. Prone to injury, yeah, hell yeah. But he has never been one not to pitch to the occasion when healthy ( except this year).

At the age of 28, after his eighth big league season, he had a career ERA of 4.75. Forget about injuries; that's just not all that good. Don't get me wrong, he put it together nicely after that, but I'm not going to give him a free ride on the first third of his career.

LeiterFanatic · 07-10-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

At the age of 28, after his eighth big league season, he had a career ERA of 4.75. Forget about injuries; that's just not all that good. Don't get me wrong, he put it together nicely after that, but I'm not going to give him a free ride on the first third of his career.

I understand what you are saying, but the first third of his career, as you call it, consisted of about 115 total innings in 6 years. How can you forget about the injuries when he basically was pitching injured for the bulk of that time? 1987 he was called up from AA and threw 22 innings. Not much to go on in terms of performance potential. Then 1988 he went on the DL twice I believe battling blisters. Again not a benchmark year. And 89 he got hurt early, right before the Blue Jays trade. He onyl made one start for Toronto and in tremendous pain. Then thats in except for September throwaway appearences like his ONE inning in 92 because he was in Dunedin trying to rehab his elbow for all of 90 and 91. I think Leiter's real career starts in 93, but I dont see how you can seperate the injuries from the performance for that "first third"

Bobbuttons · 07-10-2005, 10:44 PM

I have a soft spot for Al Leiter, and it's purely OOTP related. Back with OOTP 3 I started a career with the 1995 Indians and in 1996 I picked up Al Leiter in a trade. He pitched pretty awful much of the year, and by late season he was rarely starting (had an ERA well over 5). He redeemed himself in the playoffs, though. In the ALCS we were down 3 games to 2 when he was called to get the start. He would pitch 7 brilliant shut out innings and we would squeak by with a win and that would give us the momentum to win game 7 and then win in the World Series, as well.

I traded him early in the next season, but he did give me one great memory and that has earned my respect.

mlyons · 07-10-2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

I understand what you are saying, but the first third of his career, as you call it, consisted of about 115 total innings in 6 years.

Actually, the time period I was referring to consisted of 339 innings in 8 years. Injuries or no, he was given plenty of opportunities to pitch during those eight years, and was generally ineffective. That doesn't take anything away from the ten very good years he had afterwards, but it also takes away any excuses you might make for his career numbers being a little slight.

rem · 07-10-2005, 11:46 PM

I wasn't making any excuses, I was just saying it's a shame.

mlyons · 07-11-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remangiii

I wasn't making any excuses, I was just saying it's a shame.

It's a shame that he wasn't very good? I could say that about quite a few players. Just think how great Kevin Brown would have been if he hadn't had so many seasons where he was just average.

darkhorse · 07-11-2005, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

It's a shame that he wasn't very good? I could say that about quite a few players. Just think how great Kevin Brown would have been if he hadn't had so many seasons where he was just average.

In full seasons for Brown, of which there are 17 to date, I count 4 seasons where he was average or worse. Brown is an easy choice for HOF induction. Leiter falls into the good to excellent range. He's had a damn fine career.

JDOldSchool · 07-11-2005, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

Actually, the time period I was referring to consisted of 339 innings in 8 years. Injuries or no, he was given plenty of opportunities to pitch during those eight years, and was generally ineffective.

If you think 339 innings is plenty to go by, you're terribly mistaken. 339 innings is a season and a half for a regular starter. 2 years for a bottom of the rotation guy. I think if we look at the first 2 years of the careers of many great pitchers they would look similar to Leiter.

I'm not defending the guy because I want him to retire because he's the only good analyst Fox has. I just think this argument makes very little sense.

Skipaway · 07-11-2005, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

If you think 339 innings is plenty to go by, you're terribly mistaken. 339 innings is a season and a half for a regular starter. 2 years for a bottom of the rotation guy. I think if we look at the first 2 years of the careers of many great pitchers they would look similar to Leiter.

Yeah, but most great pitchers would have their 339 average innings before age 25. Leiter got his 339 not till age 28.

Saying it's a shame Leiter didn't have a better career because he didn't turn into a good pitcher before age 29 is similar to saying it's a shame Luis Gonzalez didn't hit anything special before age 31. It's not exactly about chances.

What Leiter did before age 29 would have been enough for him to be a career end of rotation guy, and what Luis Gonzalez did before age 31 was enough for him to be the 3rd best OF on most teams.

mlyons · 07-11-2005, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

If you think 339 innings is plenty to go by, you're terribly mistaken. 339 innings is a season and a half for a regular starter. 2 years for a bottom of the rotation guy. I think if we look at the first 2 years of the careers of many great pitchers they would look similar to Leiter.

I'm not defending the guy because I want him to retire because he's the only good analyst Fox has. I just think this argument makes very little sense.

The point is that he wasn't denied career value by extraordinary circumstances, like Jackie Robinson getting a later start due to segregation or Ted Williams losing years to military service. Leiter was around the majors from the ages of 21 to 28; he just wasn't anything special during that time, and not good enough to win full-time spots in any rotation.

Johnny Slick · 07-11-2005, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

The point is that he wasn't denied career value by extraordinary circumstances, like Jackie Robinson getting a later start due to segregation or Ted Williams losing years to military service. Leiter was around the majors from the ages of 21 to 28; he just wasn't anything special during that time, and not good enough to win full-time spots in any rotation.

I have it on good word that there was de facto Leiterism going on at the time.

Anachronism · 07-11-2005, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

The point is that he wasn't denied career value by extraordinary circumstances, like Jackie Robinson getting a later start due to segregation or Ted Williams losing years to military service. Leiter was around the majors from the ages of 21 to 28; he just wasn't anything special during that time, and not good enough to win full-time spots in any rotation.

As a Jays fan he was good enough to stick in the rotation - he was just ALWAYS injured. I can remember each year we waited to see if he could pitch, and I remembered the let downs with blister after blister, DL visit after DL visit. The Jays showed great patience with Leiter, knowing what they had in him. My only disappointment came when after all the patience the Jays showed with Leiter, he left the team as soon as he could.

JDOldSchool · 07-11-2005, 11:08 AM

So should we penalize a guy for being injured, espeically when injuries like blisters aren't his fault (not like a Kerry Wood who gets injured because of bad mechanics he refuses to alter)? I'm not arguing for Leiter to be a HOF candidate because he's clearly not. I just don't know if a guy should be punished for losing his prime years due to injury.

Gastric ReFlux · 07-11-2005, 11:17 AM

I don't think it's a case, really, of punishing. Are we punishing all those who don't make the HOF?

I think we get into trouble when we start worrying if it's punishment for a person not being in the HOF, and not worrying about what merits inclusion.

Anachronism · 07-11-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

So should we penalize a guy for being injured, espeically when injuries like blisters aren't his fault (not like a Kerry Wood who gets injured because of bad mechanics he refuses to alter)? I'm not arguing for Leiter to be a HOF candidate because he's clearly not. I just don't know if a guy should be punished for losing his prime years due to injury.

I think staying healthy and putting up numbers are a part of any career....

abailey3313 · 07-11-2005, 11:34 AM

I'm hardly an expert on the Hall of Fame, so for me to compare Leiter to other borderline members and suggest that he would or would not be a inductee had a few things gone differently wouldn't be accurate. I will, however, say that I am a fan of keeping the Hall exclusive to those who had truly great careers. That said, personally, I don't believe that Leiter would be a Hall of Famer, regardless of if his career had began a few seasons earlier.

07-10-2005, 06:14 PM	#1
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	Al Leiter Al Leiter has really only had one bad (or even average for the most part) year (1994) aside from this year and possibly 1997. It's a shame that his career got off to a late start and he never really pitched that many innings, otherwise we'd probably be looking at him as a HOFer. __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

07-10-2005, 06:30 PM	#3
mlyons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,725	Yeah, it's tough to give a guy credit for a late start to his career when the reason his career got off to a pretty rough start is that he wasn't very good until he turned 27 or so. It's not like he was blocked in the minors or anything. He was given plenty of opportunities to succeed at the big league level and just wasn't able to make the most of them. __________________ Things can always be worse.

07-10-2005, 10:44 PM	#7
Bobbuttons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Picturesque Mentor-on-the-Lake, Ohio Posts: 3,708	I have a soft spot for Al Leiter, and it's purely OOTP related. Back with OOTP 3 I started a career with the 1995 Indians and in 1996 I picked up Al Leiter in a trade. He pitched pretty awful much of the year, and by late season he was rarely starting (had an ERA well over 5). He redeemed himself in the playoffs, though. In the ALCS we were down 3 games to 2 when he was called to get the start. He would pitch 7 brilliant shut out innings and we would squeak by with a win and that would give us the momentum to win game 7 and then win in the World Series, as well. I traded him early in the next season, but he did give me one great memory and that has earned my respect. __________________ Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do....cause they're fast! Gibson swings, and a fly ball to deep right field! This is gonna be a home run! Unbelievable! A home run for Gibson! And the Dodgers have won the game, 5 to 4; I don't believe what I just saw! I don't believe what I just saw!

07-10-2005, 11:46 PM	#9
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	I wasn't making any excuses, I was just saying it's a shame. __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

07-11-2005, 11:34 AM	#20
abailey3313 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,718	I'm hardly an expert on the Hall of Fame, so for me to compare Leiter to other borderline members and suggest that he would or would not be a inductee had a few things gone differently wouldn't be accurate. I will, however, say that I am a fan of keeping the Hall exclusive to those who had truly great careers. That said, personally, I don't believe that Leiter would be a Hall of Famer, regardless of if his career had began a few seasons earlier. __________________

07-10-2005, 06:17 PM	#2
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	I don't know about that. Leiter always had trouble with his control, and that's what gave him his late start. Even then, he never had really good control, with a walk rate of over 4 per 9 innings.

07-11-2005, 11:08 AM	#17
JDOldSchool Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 4,023	So should we penalize a guy for being injured, espeically when injuries like blisters aren't his fault (not like a Kerry Wood who gets injured because of bad mechanics he refuses to alter)? I'm not arguing for Leiter to be a HOF candidate because he's clearly not. I just don't know if a guy should be punished for losing his prime years due to injury.

07-11-2005, 11:17 AM	#18
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	I don't think it's a case, really, of punishing. Are we punishing all those who don't make the HOF? I think we get into trouble when we start worrying if it's punishment for a person not being in the HOF, and not worrying about what merits inclusion.