1871 re-imagined

[RMc]

Six more players have reached baseball's Valhalla, as pitchers Bill Atwater, Charley Bearman, Fred Goldsmith, Rynie Wolters and George Zettlein were inducted in Hoboken, as well as outfielder Robert Halbach. Wolters also holds the distinction of having the highest-ever batting average fir one season, a surreal .502 mark back in 1871.

[RMc]

On January 1, 1895, a group of baseball men held a press conference at the National Association offices in New York, and announced that the three Associations -- National, American and Union -- would now come under a new corporate umbrella called "Major League Baseball".



And the man to lead the new MLB? Who else but Jim Creighton himself!



PROMOTIONS AND RELEGATIONS

From NA to AA: St. Louis Maroons, Middletown [in place of the Chicago White Stockings], Cleveland [in place of the New York Mutuals].

From AA to NA: Indianapolis, Rochester, Dayton.

From AA to UA: Buffalo, Hartford, Troy.

From UA to AA: Lowell, Jersey City, Reading.

[RMc]

I was going to wait until 1901 or so to bring in the minors, but I decided to start early, just because I don't like players unsigned or sitting on the bench somewhere: I want them to play, somewhere. (Even after expanded rosters to 20 players and 10 reserves, there were still plenty left over.)

But expanding the majors further (and/or creating a fourth league) wasn't really going to work: there's already sixty clubs, many of them in small towns that, by the late 19th century, would never be able to support big-league baseball (I'm looking at you, Keokuk). And all teams had to be in what I call "the envelope": the Northeast and Midwest US and eastern Canada, with a line drawn from the Twin Cities to Kansas City to Louisville to Richmond marking the outer border. Baseball IRL didn't expand outside these parameters until the 1950s; no team in any pro sports ventured outside the envelope until the mid-1940s.

I don't know when or where I'm going to "open" the envelope; probably towards the south in the 1930s, maybe? Since there's no segregation in baseball in this timeline, that might be a possibility; any ideas?

So, I created the Minor League Alliance, an eight-team Pacific Coast League and an eight-team Southern Association, which contains three teams from Texas:



I'm not going to talk too much about the MLA -- it exists mainly in the background.

Got it? Let's play ball...!

[RMc]

For much of the 1894 season, the legendary Red Stockings of Cincinnati were -- meh. It looked like they might not make the Centennial Cup playoffs for the first time since the tournament began in 1875. But they rebounded, made the playoffs, and took their eighth Cup. So, when the Reds started slow in 1895, hanging at mid-table by the end of May, there wasn't much cause for concern in the Queen City: the club would turn things around, maybe win another Cup, right?

Right?

In June, it all started to come apart when Cincy lost 21 of 28 games, including six in a row, to push the club down near the dreaded relegation zone. Then, they lost 14-11 in Detroit on the fourth of July, kicking off a fifteen-game losing streak, putting the Red Stockings firmly in 19th place -- just ahead of the hopeless White Sox.

The league was in a horrible position: would they really relegate the defending Centennial Cup champions? And not just any Cup champions, but the Red Stockings? Just a year after cashiering the equally legendary Forest Citys of Cleveland...? Newly-appointed Commissioner of Baseball Jim Creighton met with the club owners in August, but, unsurprisingly, they were not very sympathetic to the Cincinnati club who had been beating them, again and again, for two decades. Also, they were annoyed that the other Stockings -- the White ones -- were about to use their relegation exemption for the fourth straight year.

So, Creighton made two announcements: (1) no club would be allowed to use a relegation exemption for more than five consecutive years; and (2) no defending Centennial Cup winner could be relegated against its will. These new rules would take effect in...1896. So, the Reds were doomed, at least for 1895, if they didn't right the ship. They managed to play near-.500 ball for the rest of the year, but it wasn't enough: 18th-place Cincinnati would drop down to the American Association, along with one of their long-time rivals, Tri Mountain of Boston, and the Dayton Veterans, who had been promoted just the year before.

Meanwhile, at the top of the table, the Brooklyn Eckfords, AA pennant winners two years earlier, grabbed the National flag, six games in front of Fort Wayne. Toronto brought Cup playoffs back to the Dominion with a 8-2 win over Newark in a one-game playoff:



In the American, the Phillies took the top spot and ensured they would be the second team from the City of Brotherly Love to play in the top tier in '95. Another surprise was the Forest City club, whose fans fully expected the Clevelands to quickly return to the NA -- but they only finished in ninth, and they needed to win eight of their last ten just to get that high:



And in the Union Association, the incredible Pete O'Brien crushed 45 homers and drove in 172 runs, leading Fall River to their first pennant:

[RMc]

With the Mutuals failing (and the so-called Greater New York club being handed the wooden spoon in 1894, only to bounce back to mid-table in '95), the New York Giants were looking to become the Big Apple's top ballclub. After finishing fifth on the season, the Jints promptly dispatched second-place Wilmington in the quarterfinals, quickly stepping to 7-2 and 9-2 victories. In the other quarterfinal, 29-game winner Jack Stivetts and the Grand Rapids Shamrocks, determined to make it to the NA in 1896, dropped the opener of the best-of-three series to Lowell -- with Stivetts himself taking the loss. But the 'Rocks bounced back with a 7-3 win in western Michigan, then sent Stivetts to the mound for Game 3. Lawrence Farley and Ed Callahan each drove in three runs, and Stivetts did the rest, scattering ten hits in a 7-2 win.

At New York's Polo Grounds for the semifinal, the Giants stood tall, winning the opener, 8-2, as Fred Tenney mowed down the Shamrocks on six hits. In Game 2, with Stivetts starting for Grand Rapids, the clubs were tied at five going into the last of the ninth, with both teams scoring thrice in the seventh. In the ninth, 38-year-old Bill Phillips, who had spent most of his nineteenth pro season on the bench, was tabbed as a pinch hitter and lashed a triple. With Tom Morrison at the plate, Stivetts uncorked a wild pitch, giving NY a 6-5 win and a 2-0 series lead.

Back in Grand Rapids, the Shamrocks needed a Phenomenal game -- and they got it, as Phenomenal Smith fired a five-hit shutout in a 9-0 victory; the GR hitters helped, with 15 hits. In Game 4, Stivetts started again, and quickly revealed he had little left in tank, allowing a run in the first inning, two runs in the second and two more in the fifth. The Shamrocks fought back to make it 5-4, and put runners on second and third in the ninth, but the Giants held on to punch their tickets to the American Cup Final against Philadelphia.



More than a few ball fans think that the Richmond Rebels should've been named the "Elevators" -- with an extra-large DOWN button. An expansion team in the NA in 1885, Richmond promptly finished dead last and were dispatched to the AA -- and finished dead last again in 1887. Then they rebounded, taking the Union pennant and Cup in 1888 and an American Cup playoff spot in '89, but by 1891 they were back in the third tier.

In the Union Cup quarterfinals, though, a Rebel uprising was at hand. Ernie Burch slammed a three-run homer as Richmond took the first game, 7-5. In the second contest, the Pittsburgh Alleghneys [EDITOR'S NOTE: That does it. I'm tired of trying to remember how to spell "Alleghneys". I'm changing their name next year. "Pirates"? Maybe. Dunno yet.] looked like they would even the series when they jumped to a 7-3 lead in the fourth, powered by six singles, three walks and a Charlie Abbey dinger.

But the Rebels fought on, scoring two in both the fourth and the fifth and one more in the eighth to tie the game at eight. In the bottom of the ninth, Charlie Pickering (one of six defensive replacements the Rebels made in the eighth inning) drew a walk, then tried to steal second; Tug Arundel then chopped the ball in front of home plate, causing him and Pittsburgh catcher Jerry Harrington. The ump called a catcher's interference on Harrington -- one of the rarest plays in baseball -- putting two runners on. After a groundout moved both runners up, rookie Ambrose McGann (another of the defensive replacements) knocked a single to plate the game-winner, 9-8. [Now, I'll never have to type "Alleghneys" ever again! Huzzah! -- Ed.]


Once upon a time, the Forest City club of Rockford, Illinois -- they got the name from the great Forest City of Cleveland club when the Ohioans came to town in 1868 and slaughtered the locals, 51-12 -- were an original franchise of the National Association. Led by the great Cap Anson, they played in six straight Centennial Cup playoffs from 1875-80, making it to the final game in '75, only to lose, 3-1, to their namesakes from Cleveland. After a second-place finish and another Cup playoff appearance in 1883, though, the club began to slide, slipping to near the bottom of the table in 1887. The newspapers and many fans decided the problem was their best player and manager, Cap Anson. On July 1, 1887, the Rockfords did the unthinkable -- they released Anson, saying the 35-year-old was "too slow". Anson promptly moved north and joined the Chicago Colts, batting .405 and leading them to a Union Cup title.

While "The Marshalltown Infant" remains a solid player at the age of 43 -- his 3,353 hits is a pro baseball record -- the Forest Citys have gone in the other direction, finishing last in the NA in 1888 and last again in the AA four years later. Now, with new blood like the great Negro shortstop Grant Johnson and solid veterans such as lefty hurler Peter Sommers, the Rockfords finished in second in the UA, guaranteeing a promotion to the AA for next year. In the playoffs, Rockford drilled the Scranton Miners (making their first Cup appearance) in two straight, 10-6 and 12-3, setting up a Rockford-Richmond repechage

In the semifinal opener in Virginia, the Rebels attacked with four runs in the eighth to seal a 6-2 win, then opened up a 2-0 series lead as Burch slammed a bases-clearing triple in a six-run fourth inning, holding on to win, 9-7. Back in Rockford, it looked like a sweep was at hand when 22-year-old rookie sensation Jim Gardner was gifted a 4-0 lead in the second inning -- aided by Gardner's own RBI single -- but Rockford struck back to make it a 5-5 tie going into the bottom of the ninth. Gardner gave way to change pitcher Wil Calihan, who got the first two betters out but yielded a Jay Faatz single, followed by a Jack Brennan double to keep Forest City alive, 6-5.

The fourth game was another thriller: the clubs produced free baseball when they remained knotted, 5-5, after nine stanzas. Richmond looked to finally clinch the series when they scored two in the top of the 11th, thanks to rookie Jim Collopy (who had just 17 at-bats in the regular season), who hit a pinch-hit two-run single to make it 8-7. But...not so fast! With the bases loaded, two out and one run already in, 38-year-old John Morrissey slipped a single down the first-base line, scoring the winning runs and evening the series!

Unlike the Centennial Cup Final of the previous year, home teams had a perfect 4-0 record in this series, and Richmond looked to make it 5-0 when the deciding game was played on Mayo Island Park in Richmond. This time, the Rebs ensured there would be no last-minute heroics: Richmond scored four times, including Burch's two-run single in the third inning, and cruised to a 7-2 win...setting up a date with Fall River for the Union Cup!

[RMc]

When the 21st Annual Centennial Cup playoffs commenced, things seemed a bit...off. Where were all the great clubs that had dominated baseball over the past quarter-century -- Forest City of Cleveland, the Red Stockings of Cincinnati, Tri Mountain of Boston, Athletic of Philadelphia or the White Stockings of Chicago? Well, not only were they absent from the Cup playoffs, but they had also been booted out of the NA (Cleveland), were being hustled out the door (Cincinnati and Boston), or were hanging on by their fingernails, with only the fig leaf of big-city "relegation exemptions" (Philadelphia, Chicago) to cover up their shortcomings.

Still, there were five lively ballclubs battling for the Cup, including one that wanted to bring it to the Dominion of Canada -- the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Leafs began in the UA in 1886, then did the "double-jump" from UA to AA to NA in 1890-92, winning the Union Cup in '90 and finishing just one game out of first in 1893. In the 1895 playoffs, Toronto swept aside Fort Wayne in the quarters, with Amos Rusie tossing a four-hitter in a 7-2 win and Mark Baldwin doing even better in the second game, as the Keks managed just three safeties off him in a 5-1 loss.

In the other quarterfinal, Altoona tangled with Elizabeth, who was led by sudden home run star Buck Ewing. Ewing had been around 1880, but was never exactly a slugger, managing only 20 circuit clouts in his first fourteen years in the game. But in 1894, he socked seven homers (and bumped his average up nearly a hundred points to .344), then cut loose in '95 with a .369 average, 35 home runs and 146 RBI -- all career highs -- at the advanced age of 35. "I can see the ball better than ever before," Ewing said. "I just see it and hit it!"

In the first game, Altoona held Ewing to just one hit -- albeit two-run single -- in a 6-4 win in the Mountain City. Back in Elizabeth, Resolute tied up the series, scoring four times in the opening frame (including a leadoff homer by Pat Callaghan, one of his three hits) and cruised to a 12-4 win. In the rubber match, Elizabeth took a 3-2 lead into the sixth when big Buck cut loose with a blast off Altoona pitcher Calvin Griffith. Tim Keefe, winner of 37 games in the season, added one more in a 6-3 win.


The semifinals opened at the Toronto Island Ballpark, with the leaves falling on Lake Ontario -- and each club securing a one-run win. In the opener, Ed Swartwood hit a run-scoring double in the tenth to give Elizabeth a 6-5 win; in Game 2, the Leafs jumped to a 5-1 lead, fell behind 7-6 in the eighth, tied the game on Pidgey Morgan's bases-loaded walk in the ninth, then walked off Resolute with an RBI single by Al Brower in the eleventh. Amos Rusie, in relief, got the win.

Back at Waverly Grounds in New Jersey, the Resolutes scored twice in the fourth of Ewing's two-RBI triple, but Toronto quickly tied it with two of their own in the fifth, then went ahead on a three-spot in the sixth. Meanwhile, Elizabeth was chilled by Leafs' hurler Ice Box Chamberlain, who allowed the Resolutes only three hits on the day; in fact, they had fewer hits than errors (five), handing the Leafs a 7-2 win. Game 4 was a pitcher's duel, as Rusie allowed just two runs on four hits -- but Keefe was even better, shutting out Toronto on three hits in a 2-0 win to knot the series again.

The deciding game at Waverly saw the Maple Leafs score early and often, leading 5-2 after six innings. Then Toronto blew the game open in the seventh, notching five runs off Elizabeth hurler Ted Kennedy. Resolute battled back with a pair of runs in both the eighth and ninth innings, but it was too little, too late as the Leafs won, 10-6, and clinched a spot in the Centennial Cup Final against the Eckfords of Brooklyn.

[RMc]

Just as the Giants were looking to achieve baseball supremacy in the nation's largest city, the Philadelphia Phillies were looking to do the same in America's second-largest town. In the American Cup opener at 23rd and Parkdale, the hometown Phils trailed 2-1 until Bill Joyce homered to tie the game in the sixth. Then the dam broke in when the Phillies put up three more runs in the seventh and another two in the eighth, en route to a 7-2 triumph. In Game 2, though, the New Yorkers scored twice in the top of the first on a long double by Podge Weihe. Hurler Gus Krock did the rest, shutting down the Phils on a run and five hits for his fourth win of the postseason.

But when the Cup Final made it to New York, the Giants proceeded to flop on Broadway, as the Phillies never trailed for the rest of the series. In the third game, Joyce had three more hits and Joe Visner drove in three in an 8-5 decision; in Game 4, Walt Goldsby had a triple and a home run as Philly won, 7-2; and in the finale, Goldsby had three hits and two RBI, while Joyce had two more hits -- he would finish the Cup Final with a .500 average and be awarded the MVP -- as the Phillies phinished off the phools phrom the Big Apple, 6-3, giving Philadelphia its phirst Cup since Athletics took the Centennial back in '81!



Originally built as a football field (and actually over the border from Fall River in North Tiverton, Rhode Island), Mark's Park became the home of the Marksmen when Fall River was awarded an American Association franchise in 1885. By 1890, the club was in the Union Association and struggled at mid-table before a surprise pennant in '95, led by the incredible Pete O'Brien and a solid pitching core of Clem Kimerer, Hank Gastright and Bill Hoffer. In the first two games of the Union Cup at Mark's Park, the Marksmen were firing on all cylinders, snapping a 7-7 tie with six runs in the eighth in the first game, then walking off the Rebels on a game-winning grand slam by Pete O'Brien, 14-10.

Things did not improve much for Richmond at home. After both teams scored in the first inning, Fall River put up a trio in the third, thanks mostly to Bill Niles' two-run double. The Rebels fought back with a pair of tallies in the fifth on a ground out and an error. But Richmond could get no closer, as Hoffer sent down the last nine Rebels in order to claim a 4-3 win and a 3-0 lead in the Cup Final. Richmond managed to pull one back in Game 4, as the rookie, 31-game winner Jim Gardner set down the Marksmen on just three hits, 2-1.

After holding the high-flying Marksmen to only five runs in the last two games (as opposed to 27 in the first two!), the Rebels could send the series back up north with another strong pitching performance. Frank Killen shut out Fall River for eight innings, giving Richmond a 4-0 lead. And then, with two out in the top of the ninth and the bases empty, the Marksmen rallied. First, O'Brien socked a home run on the first pitch. Then a single, double and a single scored another run, William Chouquette hit a ground ball to third baseman Bill White, seemingly ending the game -- but White bobbled it, allowing the third Fall River run to score. With the bases loaded, Dick Phelan drew a walk, and the game was tied at four!

But that...was NOT the end of the game...not by a long shot. Neither team scored in the next five innings, and when the Marksmen put up a run in the top of the 15th on another bases-loaded walk, Richmond evened the game up again with an error. Still tied. Finally, Fall River struck four times in the 16th on two hits, two walks and two errors. The exhausted Rebels went down in order, giving Fall River its first Union Cup! (Cup play records broken include longest game [16 innings and 4 hours, 57 minutes] and most pitchers used in a game [five for Fall River, seven for both teams].)

[RMc]

A young man named Cornelius McGillicuddy was signed by the Richmond Rebels in their first season in 1885. The Rebs needed a backup catcher, as their starter was 43-year-old Charley Mills. McGillicuddy -- who swiftly changed his name to Connie Mack -- started 49 games, but could only manage a .169 mark. No, that wasn't Mack's batting average; that was his OPS. His slash numbers were an amazingly putrid .063/.073/.095 for an astonishing OPS+ of minus-45. Ouch. "They ran me out of town on a rail," Mack later said. After a trade to the Eckford club, Mack sat on the bench for two years before becoming a solid performer in Brooklyn, who snatched their first National pennant in 1895 -- two years after taking the American double.

In the Cup Final opener at Flatbush Field, the Ecks wasted no time, scoring four times in the first inning off Amos Rusie. Henry Larkin and Charlie Baker each homered in Brooklyn's 9-3 win. In the second game, Toronto broke open a 1-1 game in the sixth with four tallies, including a two-run single by Harry Koons. But Brooklyn fought back with a four-pack of their own in eighth, as player/manager Arthur Irwin drove in a pair. Finally, in the eleventh, Eckford's Martin Powell singled, went to second on a bunt, then made it all the way home on a long single by...Connie Mack. Brooklyn won, 6-5, and led the series, 2-0.

The Cup Final shifted to the Maple Leafs' beautiful Toronto Island Ballpark, but things got uglier for the home side. In the fifth, Brooklyn erased a 1-0 deficit with a trio of markers, aided by two costly Toronto errors. Despite Rusie holding the Ecks to just three hits, the four unearned runs were enough to take a 4-2 decision, and a seemingly insurmountable 3-0 lead in the series. When Brooklyn took a 4-3 lead after six innings in Game 4, it seemed a sweep was in order. But as in every mystery story, the Butler did it -- that is, Bill Butler, who tied the game with an RBI single in seventh, then won it in the ninth by smashing a triple, then scoring the winning run on an error for 5-4 win.

In the fifth game, poor defense cost Toronto again: they committed six miscues, but still held on to a 3-3 tie after five innings. But Brooklyn hurler Bert Dorr slammed Toronto by shutting them out the rest of the way, while Eckford scored single runs in the sixth, seventh and eighth to clinch a 6-3 win, and their first Centennial Cup.

After the game, manager Irwin gave all credit to his catcher: Mack batted .421 in the Cup Final and was awarded the MVP. Throwing an arm around Connie, Irwin said, "This man will lead this club someday!" Mack just laughed. "Me, a manager? That'll be the day...!"

[RMc]

Despite being hundreds of miles from the Pacific coast, the Salt Lake City Bees claimed the first PCL championship in 1895, leading the league in runs scored despite not having a .300 hitter. Meanwhile, in the heart of Texas, the Houston Buffaloes stampeded to the initial Southern Association title, then told the Bees to bug off in the Commissioner's Cup Final, sweeping them aside in four straight.

[RMc]

It was a great year for Eckfords left-fielder Henry Larkin, as his club won the Centennial Cup, while he took the Creighton MVP Award:



Meanwhile, Tim Keefe took the Pitcher of the Year Award, winning ten first-place votes from the writers. Meanwhile, Kid Nichols took the Pitcher of the Year Award, winning ten first-place votes from the writers.

Yes, it was a tie, the first-ever for a baseball award. Since there was only one trophy, both men offered to let the other keep it, but both men refused. Finally, a Solomon-like solution was struck: the trophy was cut in half, with each man keeping their half on their mantlepiece for the rest of their lives.

AA MVP: Ad Gumbert (Cleveland)
AA PoY: Jack Stivetts (Grand Rapids) -- his fifth consecutive trophy!

UA MVP: George Davis (St Louis Browns)
UA PoY: Harry Burrell (Pittsburgh Allghny...Alhegheny...Alg...ah, the heck with it!)

[RMc]

The Pittsburgh Alleghenys had decided to move from their old ballpark in the nearby town of Allegheny, Pennsylvania to a new one in the Crawford neighborhood of Pittsburgh's Hill District, only to find that the Yellow Jackets were also looking at that spot. Allegheny owner Barney Dreyfuss was outraged: "We will not stand for these pirates trying to steal this spot from us! We are the true baseball pioneers in this city!"

So, the team was renamed...the Pittsburgh Crawfords!



PROMOTIONS AND RELEGATIONS

From NA to AA: Boston Tri Mountains, Cincinnati and Dayton [in place of the Chicago White Stockings].

From AA to NA: Philadelphia Phillies, Wilmington and Grand Rapids.

From AA to UA: Keokuk, Kansas City and Middletown.

From UA to AA: Fall River, Rockford and Richmond.

[RMc]

The Shrine of the Eternals in Hoboken, NJ, welcomed four new members in 1896, three of whom wore the uniform of the Forest City club...actually, clubs, both of them!

Catcher Charley Hodes and pitcher John Riley of Cleveland joined pitcher William "Cherokee" Fisher of Rockford in the Shrine, along with outfielder Jimmy Hallinan of New Haven.

[RayFleetwood]

Just found this thread and finished reading all nine pages. Have really enjoyed it so far. I see you have altered the relegation rules again.

I’m trying to find a way to offer constructive criticism without sounding like a hater, because it’s not meant that way. I would have relegated the White Stockings after their second season in the relegation zone. It would have been better to drop them and give them a chance to rebuild rather than having to give up a player each season, putting them in a perennial death spiral.

Also, was Cleveland not a large enough city to claim a large city relegation exemption? Were the New York Giants denied an exemption because Mutual of New York are still in the top tier?

There seems to be a number of small market teams in the NA. From some of your comments it seems that you did not expect that to be the case. I’m wondering if the game is assigning players by the free agent market and all teams are on an equal financial footing. That would explain it. I’m just curious.

Anyway, I’m have enjoyed this so far and am anxiously awaiting your next installment.

[RMc]

Just found this thread and finished reading all nine pages. Have really enjoyed it so far.

Thanks!

I see you have altered the relegation rules again. (...) I would have relegated the White Stockings after their second season in the relegation zone. It would have been better to drop them and give them a chance to rebuild rather than having to give up a player each season, putting them in a perennial death spiral.

Honestly, I don't know what to do with relegation. When I did my previous history thread (Baseball's Reboot: the Birth of the Federation, 1893), I put all the teams under one roof and treated the divisions as if they were separate leagues, moving them around by hand. I created the "exemption" rule so that the big cities (NY, Chi, Phil and later LA) would always have representation in the top circuit. The White Sox are down to their last strike in 1896.

Also, was Cleveland not a large enough city to claim a large city relegation exemption? Were the New York Giants denied an exemption because Mutual of New York are still in the top tier?

Yes and yes.

There seems to be a number of small market teams in the NA.

I intentionally didn't fiddle with the market sizes at first, but it's obvious that the smaller towns have to go, even in a universe much larger than IRL. Part of the reason I created minor leagues in 1895 was to eventually ease the Keouks and Middletowns into the minors and out of "big league" baseball. (Maybe I could keep one of them, sort of the Green bay Packers of MLB?) Using historical census data, I determine how big the league cities are as compared to New York; right now, there are no fewer than 20 (out 60) teams that play in cities less than 5% the size of the Big Apple. (Middletown, CT had only 9,589 people in 1900, or 0.42% the size of New York!)

Suffice to say that this universe is gonna look a lot different once I get to the 20th century. (How? Dunno.)