[djday45]

Tks guys much appreciated, im going to change the era a bit now and do some rating which might impact the new replay the Professor is doing (prof if you have any requests feel free).

The only prob is I have changed these ratings a long time back so I dont know what was original and what I may have changed, so what im going to do is list the whole rating and the reasons I feel they are accurate for the fighter.

STANCE - Left Handed. Ok, you guys will know I use this rating not just to represent stance but also other factors which cant be easily represented by other ratings in the game. Here im using it to represent Liston's vaunted fear factor where he often used to psych out his opponent before the first bell sounded by his patented stare, using towels under his robe and general bad arse demeanor. It worked.

STYLE - Slugger. The archetypal puncher from hell. With Foreman, and Tyson he is part of the holy trinity of heavyweight monsters. There is a small argument to make him an "either" due to his very inderrated boxing skill and quality of his jab but I still feel this would be an untrue representation of his style.

FOULS - Occasionaly. Liston was not known as a particuarly dirty fighter as he was so classically skilled but he was not against throwing blows south of the border especially his hook to the body. He was for example peanalised three points against Machen in his decision over him in 1960.

FIGHTING INSIDE - 3. He was a great inside man. very nasty up close with hooks and uppercuts but always gave himself plenty of room to operate. here his brute strength really came into its own.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 3. What is not often understood about Sonny is what a great boxer he was, great classical skills very smooth and deceptively fast, and of course it all worked off that amazing jab.

COVER UP - 0. A common theme with the great punchers Louis, Tyson etc is that they were so bad when hurt. Liston was no exception.

KNOCKOUT - 3. Tempted to give him a 4 here but kept it at 3 to really punch home how versatile he was with tactics, he could really beat you and take you apart in many ways.

CLINCHING - 71. Not known as a mover as such although he cut off the ring very, very well its not the same thing. I think good ring movement should be rarer in the game.

DRAW POWER - 7. A good solid draw but not a superstar especially after he won the title as most people couldnt see how he could be beaten so gates suffered a bit.

CONDITIONING - 2. A very well conditioned man especially after you factor in his age which most experts agree was maybe quite a bit older than he admitted too. He nearly always came into the ring in great nick.

INTELLECT - 7. Quite a clever fighter with opponents, this may seem low then but I like to use the full ten points here so most lower rated fighters especially sluggers get a lower rating here.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 11. This is a great rating it just pales to his ability against sluggers. This is basically to show his lesser ability against real boxers such as Ali. I think age also has to factor into these losses and dodgy unknown circumstances but it cannot be doubted Ali gave him fits with movement and footwork and made Sonny look very slow. An 11 shows that other boxers such as Patterson, Machen, Folley were unable to.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 14. If we take Foreman and Louis as the very, very best against sluggers then Liston should absolutely be at the very next level. He was an absolute destroyer against men who stood straight in front of him and its hard to see now with hindsight how scary he was deemed to be before Ali.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 2. Liston is always seen as having a great chin and I agree with this. However he was knocked down three times during his career against Marshall, Ali and Martin, none of whom was seen as a heavy puncher. I think we can then conclude he could be hurt more by speed and being unprepared rather than a physical thing. So im quite happy giving him a 2.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 1. Only knocked out twice once against Ali in very iffy circumstances and once at the very end of his career against Martin. He should be very very hard to KO.

RECOVERY - 1. Again when hurt he normally survived. He wasant a folder under pressure.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -1. Liston never had a probelm much with cuts or swelling as usually he seemed to be the one handing out the damage!

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 2. Im really torn with this rating on one hand he is often sighted as a bully quitting on his stool against Ali in the first fight and just rolling over in the 2nd but on the other hand he went the distance against Marshall with a broken jaw after injuring himself in an early round and often walked threw his opponents punches and showed great courage. Im tempted to give him a 3 but settle on a 2 as this is more balanced and im also not convinced something wasant very wrong in those Ali fights.

KILLER INSTINCT - 10. A no brainer, if you ever watch the footage of the Patterson fights you will have no doubt. He took apart the greatest contenders of the late 50's one after one in such a nasty fashion people like Henry Cooper refused to get in the ring with him.

AGRESSIVNESS - 9. A very agressive puncher however he was also skilled and controlled due to his boxing ability.

ENDURANCE - 8. Despite his conditioning he wsant outstanding here and was often if not puffing then it could be said he lost momentum in fights if the guy didnt go in the first half of the fight. some of his late fight TKO's were due to cuts rather than clean knockouts.

DEFENSE - +2. This was one definate weakness. He wasant great defensively relying on his great offense and reach and boxing skills to keep him out of trouble. His head movement was average and a lack of footwork made him a slight target.

FAST STARTER -0. To reflect all those early ko's especially the Patterson demolitions he has to be given a 0 here.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 3. Again I feel most fighters especially sluggers should be in this range making great skilled ropes fighters such as Ali and Leonard really special.

HITTING POWER - 13. A monstrous huge puncher with his huge fists and hooks, uppercuts and right hands. As i have mentioned before if we put Foreman first I think guys like Liston, Tyson, Marciano, Louis and Dempsey must come next as a group where punching power is concerned. The more i research and read about these guys makes me feel they cant be seperated.

PUNCHING - 42. This is surpingly high for a slugger and does not represent his speed which wasant outstanding more the fact of his great reach and execellent accuracy and boxing skills often working off his outstanding nasty jab. Liston was pretty damned accurate.

COUNTER PUNCHING - 40. Again very high for a puncher and he was quite capable of spearing people with that jab quickly after they missed and following up with nasty hooks.

PUNCHES MISSED - 61. he was economical with his punches his boxing skills and jab ensuring he didnt waste too much. Liston was a monster but he was a very smooth monster.

PUNCHES - have not changed these, if you do anything reduce down his combos and add these to his jab. With Liston the jab was so important.

OVERALL RATING - the changes boost him by a point to 13.