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Old 06-01-2008, 06:59 AM   #2
djday45
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,502
John L Sullivan

First up, John L is a fiendishly hard fighter to get right as most casual boxing fans only remember him as a sad fat untained old man who lost miserbly to Corbett.
This unfortunate legacy tends to overshadow what a great fighter he really was, the first great superstar of the sport. I will be rating John L here in his prime and also attempting to take into account how he should perform in that distant era up against other 19th century fighters and the difference in the sport back then.

As a matter of course I will only mention catergories I am changing, if i dont mention a rating you know I already absolutely agree with it.

FOULS - change to Frequently. Im changing from often to Frequently for two main reasons. firstly boxing back then was so much wilder, dangerous and foul ridden than it is today and also even in this era Sullivan was known for his no holds barred approach especially in his bare knuckles fights. It isnt such that he was so dirty in a Greb/Zivic way, more that he was so wild and had an win at all costs im the toughest guy in the bar attitude.

FIGHT INSIDE - change to 3. Sullivan was known as a great inside man. Although not a wresting specialist like Kilrain or Mitchell due to his great power, he was none the less very skilled. An easy decision to up it by one.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - change to 1. Although Sullivan could box and was perfectly capable of doing so on occasion, it was so alien to his natural all action wild style that im reducing it down to one. If a rating of two is the default here, he should be boxing more rarely in fights than the average.

COVER UP - change to 0. The same applies only more so. Like many of the great punchers from history, Sullivan was so used to blasting out his opponents and relying on his immense power he was incapable of covering up when it was rarely required. Also he took a punch so well he was very rarely hurt anyway.

KNOCKOUT - change to 4. come on the guys style was all about power. I will be awarding 4's to all the great heavyweight punchers from Sullivan to Tyson, it is the default of his style.

CLINCHING - change to 74. Back then wrestling was a major part of the sport, ring movement as we know it today really didnt exist until Corbett came along. Which was why partly he was so effective. To represent this Im going to be increasing most guys Clinching ratings and reducing Corbetts.

DRAW POWER - change to 10. Its all relative to today of course but in his own era the boston strong boy was THE superstar, boxings first superstar. wwithout doubt the most popular sportsmen of his era an easy no brainer decision.

INTELLECT - change to 4. A major part of his problem with Corbett was that he was incapable of working out what was happening and was unable to adapt. For all his skills Sullivan was amoung the easiest of heavyweight champs to work out his style as effectively he never changed it. Till he tasted defeat with Corbett he never needed to!

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - change to 13. Although the conventional wisdom for ratings is that you should never have more than a two point spread between the boxer/slugger ratings, its one i hearily disagree with in some special cases. Sullivan is certainly that. Because their were so few boxers in his era and to make Corbett so special and unique we must look carefully at why Sullivan dominated so easily against all other opponents. I fully intend using all the numbers on the control factor scale otherwise why are they there?

If I put guys like Marciano, Foreman and Dempsey at the top of the tree against sluggers and give them a 15 and Liston and Tyson maybe 14's then Sullivan must be on the next tier at 13 against other sluggers. this makes him rigtly truly fearsome in his own era and points up even more his ineptitude against Corbett and his fear of Peter Jackson if we keep his boxer rating at 9.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - change to 1. Sullivans chin was not average, it was great. He did not get hurt and even when he did he fought through it. a truly tough brave man a one is the least he deserves.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - change to 1. the only time he got ko'd was as an old man at the fag end of his career, and the way sullivan fought beleive me he took some great punches over his time.

RECOVERY - change to 1. Again the same applies he just had a great chin and recovery powers as he said !Im the toughest SOB in the house".

RESISTANCE TO CUTS - change to 1. This is not a reflection on Sullivan per se more a decision to represent the era. Fights just did not get stoppDEFENed in this time period as they do today. It just NEVER happened unless the fighter was so babdly injured it was almost a horror story. This is just a small nod to that wildy different era and I will be giivng most fighters of that time period this rating.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - change to 1. as I mentioned above Sullivan was a very, very tough man. Also fights jsut didnt get stopped so easily and lastly any guy that can go the amount of rounds he did in some of his epic contests and outlasted the other tough guys deserves a 1.

DEFENSE - change to +6. This is one rating in the database where Sullivan is vastly overated. He had no defense. Defense just did not exist to him. he took a lot of punishment in his career because as far as he was concerned much like Marciano but even more so he would be willing to take four punches to get in one of his own haymakers. He was quite fast offensively (we will get to that soon) but he just not capable of using a modern defense as we know it today. Again this is a feature of the vast majority of fighters in his era so it does not just affect John L in isolation but again just shows up the exceptions like Jackson, Corbett, mace even more starkly.

HITTING POWER - Change to 12. his power in the database of 9 in no way reflects his true prowess as a puncher. Again looking at a overall historical perspective with guys like Louis, Marciano, Tyson and Liston being 13's we must rank Sullivan as a notch behind those guys. If you are in any doubt on this jsut remember he was none as a deverstaing puncher and finisher even in an era when fights werre just NOT stopped!

PUNCHES LANDED - Change to 40. again his raing of 34, is just very, very wrong. He was known to be fast, very fast and this in no small way contributed to his offensive success. I have been careful to not increase him to the real speed merchants of 42+ but only because despite his speed he was still in modern terms still quite untechnical and lacking in modern boxing skills, otherwise on sheer speed alone he would be higher, but we must remember this catergory is more complex than that.

PUNCH TYPES - change the 3 point punches until the crosses are at least 14 by reducing down the jabs and combos in particular. His right hand was his murder weapon and it must be remmebered jabs and combos were very lacking in this era.

OVERALL RATING - Changes to 10. after all my ammendments he bumps up to a 10.

Comments welcome. Next up CORBETT.
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