My main point of the thread was to simply say that it would be nice if sabermetrics could be included in more easily seen and accessible places. It seems we all agree on that being a good thing and these areas being customizable would be ideal. I really wasn't trying to start some deeper discussion about sabermetrics vs traditional stats. I apologize that we've kind of diverged into that discussion and if I upset anyone.
But yes, as BirdWatcher said, I am not advocating for the removal of traditional stats at all. They do have some value and do provide information on a player. They just aren't the be-all end-all. To keep coming back to RBIs because it is an easy example: it provides little correlation to runs, where as OBP actually is pretty useful in context.
I still look at some traditional stats with the understanding that they are not all telling. If you want to only look at traditional stats, that is perfectly fine and you are welcome to do so. As BirdWatcher said again, OOTP is all about having fun and I encourage anyone to play the game the way they want to play. I'm not trying to take the fun out of it for anyone, but simply add some avenues to educate people a bit and add some more convenience for sabermetric people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdWatcher
My quibble would just be with statements like "but there is definitely a correct and incorrect way to view them", and "but rather sad because these people are uneducated (this applies to all sports, not just baseball)."
Even within the sabermetrics community there are disagreements about what the correct and incorrect way is to view stats and prevailing wisdom changes over time even among the advanced metrics crowd. I would just caution that in addressing these issues with this highly intelligent and baseball knowledgeable crowd, it might be good to avoid using phrases that sound condescending and that might create the impression that you believe the science is settled and static with regards to the sport of baseball.
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To clarify these statements:
Once we moved from the actual premise of the thread and more to the "philosophical" debate about sabermetrics vs traditional, I have not meant to come across as condescending to anyone at all, so I apologize if that is how it came across. I rather intended to be more informative.
I agree you can certainly quibble over details about how exactly to value each statistic, and this is why WAR at FanGraphs and Baseball-Reference is different. I more mean the idea of viewing stats in the context of AVG/HR/RBI is how you should view a player's statline vs sabermetrics. One is objectively better than the other. But yes, I do agree you could debate over the exact value of certain stats to a degree. Of course our views will change a bit as time goes on and research continues, but that doesn't necessarily mean that sabermetric stats aren't the best stats available to us right now.
In regards to people being less educated, I don't mean that in an offensive way. For example, I am not a huge football fan, but I enjoy watching the Bengals. I know most of the rules and can follow a game easily enough, but I don't know much about football statistics (I can read a traditional box score though). Because of this, I don't know who most of the better players are or even who most of the players on the team are. I am pretty uneducated when it comes to football, and I am aware of this. I don't try to rip on teams or players for making bad decisions, trades, signings, etc. because I am aware I don't actually fully understand how good these players are. That's okay though because I can still enjoy the game and have fun. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as I understand I don't know much about football and don't make incorrect comments about stuff based on poor knowledge/data.
It is fine if people want to enjoy baseball without being fully educated about sabermetrics. It is all for the better to have more fans of the game! I just think some people (not necessarily on these forums, but just in the world in general) think they know what is right and make a lot of critical comments, when in fact they don't. It is fine if you don't, just be aware that you don't. That's all I mean. Because the public has been trained in traditional stats, and most things the average fan views in regards to baseball use traditional stats, it makes it hard for them to realize they have more to learn and in fact don't know everything. I'm not trying to be condescending, because it can be hard to know what you don't know, if that makes sense. And again, this applies to everything in the world, not just baseball.
I hope that clarifies what I meant by those comments. I'm not trying to rip on anybody, and I think people should enjoy the game however they want as long as they know what they do and don't know. The more fans of baseball the better! :]
EDIT: Dang it Bluenoser posted while I was writing this post. I'll respond to that one again in a bit too lol.