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JAttractive · 09-21-2002, 01:40 PM

Yeah but 99 percent of those are probably illogical and anyone with any sense of baseball would not even consider them. Ie. how many combinations of those have 2 or more pitchers batting or in odd spots such as 1st -7th?

Besides I believe even you have pointed out that lineup orders probably mean very little. Now I am not suggesting manager's are not an important part of a team or that they can't make a difference in your success but certainly the strength of your team is far larger a determination of your wins/losses than the ability of a manager. Put Billy Cox on the DRays and they are still probably the worst team in baseball.

Anyway I don't disagree he is a great manager but just because Bill James says he is the best does not make it fact. He may be the most successful or something along those lines but you can't prove who is the best so it is all opinion (you would need to remove all other factors first which is impossible). For all we know the greatest manager may have been Buck Martinez or some other guy who happened to be given a weak squad that no manager could have made a winner out of.

Look at Cito Gaston. He won two World Series and had great success with the Jays even beating the above Mr. Cox. As a long time fan of Toronto though I have read numerous articles that rip him as a manager. These are all opinions however. Certainly Cito gave you results but it was with an amazing club... Does that make him great though? Personally I loved him and thought he was perfect for that squad (what was their to tinker with?) who simply needed a non-disruptive club house.

Oh well I don't mean to sound like I am ripping on Cox (I have a ton of respect for him actually), Bill James (who I think is amazing), or you Malleus (I love reading your posts and often agree with many of them). I just have to disagree when something that can't be proven is passed off as fact. He may very well be the best manager but you can't prove it is all.

09-21-2002, 01:40 PM	#10
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	Yeah but 99 percent of those are probably illogical and anyone with any sense of baseball would not even consider them. Ie. how many combinations of those have 2 or more pitchers batting or in odd spots such as 1st -7th? Besides I believe even you have pointed out that lineup orders probably mean very little. Now I am not suggesting manager's are not an important part of a team or that they can't make a difference in your success but certainly the strength of your team is far larger a determination of your wins/losses than the ability of a manager. Put Billy Cox on the DRays and they are still probably the worst team in baseball. Anyway I don't disagree he is a great manager but just because Bill James says he is the best does not make it fact. He may be the most successful or something along those lines but you can't prove who is the best so it is all opinion (you would need to remove all other factors first which is impossible). For all we know the greatest manager may have been Buck Martinez or some other guy who happened to be given a weak squad that no manager could have made a winner out of. Look at Cito Gaston. He won two World Series and had great success with the Jays even beating the above Mr. Cox. As a long time fan of Toronto though I have read numerous articles that rip him as a manager. These are all opinions however. Certainly Cito gave you results but it was with an amazing club... Does that make him great though? Personally I loved him and thought he was perfect for that squad (what was their to tinker with?) who simply needed a non-disruptive club house. Oh well I don't mean to sound like I am ripping on Cox (I have a ton of respect for him actually), Bill James (who I think is amazing), or you Malleus (I love reading your posts and often agree with many of them). I just have to disagree when something that can't be proven is passed off as fact. He may very well be the best manager but you can't prove it is all.