Negro League Baseball Release
 

Hey all,

Had a problem with corrupted data :( so it took me longer thsn expected.

A couple things:

Thanks to muted70 for the logos he was fast and they were well done(Captain Walrus has also started a series I have seen)

Thanks to No Pepper for the uniforms, impressive to say the least.

Thanks to PadresaFan for his hosting...just awesome

Ok let me outline the roster a little:

This roster features the best players for each franchise represented and the other top Negro League players folded into these teams as needed.

My primary source books inlcuded but not limited to are:

The Negro Leagues Book (SABR)
The Biographical History of the Negro Leagues

Each team has at least 35 players or so.

90% or so of players have correect Ht/Wt and Handedness, the others were assigned R/R and avg Ht/Wt by position, this was only done where information was not available.

All pitchers initially set up as starters, as was normally the case

About 75% of each team is made up of players who played for the franchise, the rest are fillers from other Negro League teams. Most of the Negro League players moved from team to team even more so than the MLB. Even the stars of the league playing for 3,4,5 or more teams was common place.

Set all players age to 21 for use in ongoing expansion play

Players stats set up for use within the Negro League, so you would have to adjust them for MLB EQ if you are concerned about purist stats. As far as I know there is little basis for MLB EQ but I have seen some for about 100 or so players, but based on a small smaple it is mostly just conjecture. IMHO this statistical representation is comparable to what I did for the Cooperstown file, since these players represent the best players in the history of each Negro League teams history, and given the opportunity, these players would have been as good as their white counterparts.

Hope you learn a little about Negro Leagues Baseball from playing around with this file, just sparking interest in the history of this under appreciated group of fabulous ballplayers is great!

The Negro Leagues were heavily influence by the Cuban ballplayers, just thought you should know.

Be sure to check out all the nicknames, this was a cultural and interesting part of baseball across the color line.

Ok here is the file:
Negro League Baseball.lg.rar

Coop

Awesome!!!:D I can't wait to get into this. Thanks, sounds like you put in a lot of time.

I laughed at Groundhog Thompson.

Thanks :)

And yeah Groundhog is one of the best!

Coop

Posted, thanks Coop!

Dude this rocks. Thank you!!!

I was just looking through The Negro Baseball Leagues: A Photographic History by Phil Dixon this afternoon.

Hmmmm,

Dont have that book, must have for my library! Thanks for the note :)

I have quite a few book relating to the Negro Leagues, but have not ran into that one before.

Coop

Thanks (Again!),

PadresFan you da man :)

Coop

This will be awesome.

I just want to make sure that I'm using this correctly. I looked for a readme in the download but didn't see one.

Do all of the files need to be replaced in the game? What exactly is the difference between a template and a quickstart anyway?

Thanks in advance to any and all who respond. I'd love to play with this, but don't want to screw up other games.

You need to put this in your Saved games folder, load the game, and make a template in game setup.

Thanks, Bubba. I've been thinking about doing a Negro League set up and, lo and behold, someone beats me to the punch. I'm looking forward to being able to play this. Maybe this weekend. :thumbup1:

One more question. Does anyone know the typical roster sizes for the historical Negro Leagues?

What time is the start up dated at? i.e., modern or historic.

dcc

Sizes varied greatly by year and team an level, and there was a lot of movement during the season as well. Off the top of my head I can remember seeing it as low as 15 players up to 23 or more. Thing is, even if it shows 25 people on the roster, actual number of players for a given game could be much less. Guys got drunk, missed the bus, and the road trip. Guys had other jobs. Guys got stabbed on a shady business deals ect.. I have read many stories about this roster situation.

I even had a chance to talk to Buck O'Neill, when he came for a play at Gonzaga in Spokane. It was about Jackie Robinson, he stayed after for what was supposed to be 15 min question period. Everyone else left, Buck stayed for over an hour telling me stories and anwering my questions :) It was great! He finally said he was an old man and had to get some shut eye, so I let him go.

Funny how your question reminded me of that, he had said at some point he and Satchel went to the docks on the E Coast after a game, when they got back to the bus, 2 of the guys could not be found. Couple weeks later, one guy got a hold of Buck to tell him he got married and was leaving baseball. They never heard what happened to the other guy.

Coop

I did fictional modern

Coop

Great job with this and it looks great. You did an awesome job with most of the star players, but have to say not so good with the next few tiers. It's all supposition all of this though, so opinion and conjecture are just as relevant as fact and statistics. For example, I gotta disagree with you on players like Walter Ball (who's right-handed btw), James Robinson, Mike Moore, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler (not sure why he's on the same team as Home Run Grant, since they both were star 2nd baseman), Pop Lloyd (arguably the greatest NeL hitter of all time, and maybe the best all-around player of all time), Spot Poles (as good or better than Pete Hill), Piper Davis, Bill Lindsay, Willie Foster (who is Big Bill on CAG?), Rube Foster (one of the best NeL Pitchers of all time), Jose Munoz, Mike Gonzalez (both in the Cuban BHoF), Jose Mendez, Joe Rogan, Hilton Smith (all 3 are also in the MLB HoF), Newt Allen, Dobie Moore (if he didn't die young, would have been one of the all-time greats), and many many many others.

Again, great job putting all this together, you should be commended and it looks great, but I personally don't plan on using it. I know that may sound harsh and my apologies, but I don't think many of the players are all that accurate, though as I said it is all smoke, mirrors, conjecture and opinion on all of it in regards to the NeL's. Peace... CPB

First of all....
 

CPB,

Thank you for your input, especially qualifying your remarks :)

I went back and looked at all your cited examples, cross referenced them (including on line resources which I did not use much in the roster creation) and did find some misses, some inconsistencies and some disagreements.

First off, I increased the statisical numbers for each player you listed, although some not as much as others. In relation to the other players at the same position I agreed with almost every player you mentioned :) I noticed that some split numbers effected the overall ratings on several players, once this was adjusted, the overall rating were much more in line.

I would encourage you to relay any other players you think deserve a better slot or ones that may need to be reduced. I welcome it. Researching the Negro Leagues I concur that conjecture and opinion are where players are judged, as statistics while incomplete also are hardly credible when trying to understand what levels of competition are involved.

You can imagine, going through over 800 players from "The Biographic History of The Negro Leagues and assigning statistics from "The Negro Leagues Book" as well it is certainly a shot in the dark. LOL a 90/100 defensive rating based on the description "Great range, best shortstop of his era.

Although I know Rube Foster was a very good pitcher, he is not portrayed nearly as much for his pitching than he was for his management and work in the creation of the "Modern" Negro Leagues. I still bumped him up as he is due, once going 53-1, albeit against somewhat unknown competetion :)

As for the roster make up, "Bud Fowler (not sure why he's on the same team as Home Run Grant, since they both were star 2nd baseman)", I went with keeping players on the teams they were linked to first, then back filled the other as needed.

Dang :confused: John Henry "Pop" Lloyd, yeah, he's like the black Ty Cobb, irony lol. Cobb being the premier White Supremicist of his time, too harsh? He is reflected much better now, thank you!

(who is Big Bill on CAG?) Willie Foster, Rube's half-brother, changed his name, nickname, and updated stats, his biographic info was much less flatering than his on-line (HOF) he looks to be a debatable player, but HOF qualifies him as upper tier. Stories say he used to be a long reliever for Satchel Paige, Paige would start many more games for the "draw" and Foster would come in by the second or third inning.

Jose Munoz only played like 4 seasons at the end of his career in the Negro Leagues, but he was good, and obviosly great in Cuba. He has been updated.

Dobie Moore was slighted in most areas due to exactly what you stated, based on his stats though, he was updated accordingly.

I really LOVE the Negro Leagues, it is a incredible stroy, sad for the history of our nation, but I wanted people to get the enjoyement I have had as a baseball fan.

So, I would challenge you to help me bring that to the entire community. I will look at and rework the rosters from an "overall" perspective looking at players in relation to each other, rather than a strictly statistical/biographical view. I admit that there is obviosly areas to be improved, I had hoped, not counting on feedback, while I started the project. But, I will take it moving forward, it is a lot easier to move stuff around now that it is completed :)

It sure would be nice for someone that cares about the Negro Leagues and OOTP to be able to use this roster :)

Thanks again,

Coop

Anyone else? Step up if you can, CPB has done a great job already. LOL only 2 hours of work on thiis today :)

Okay, I'm game. I have been using a NeL database of my own since OOTP 7 and it has over 1,100 players currently. It will keep expanding as I add more fringe players to the early years. It is for a project and a book I have been working on for a long time. I worked in professional baseball for years and met many of the NeLers who were still alive back in the mid to late 80's. I met them thru benefit nights we had for them at the minor league baseball level, long before MLB started theirs. Had many many many conversations with them over the years as well, as you did with Mr. O'Neil.

The Negro Leagues have always been a passion of mine and I've brought hundreds of them to life so to speak in Strat-O-Matic as well thru the creation of player cards and a league I have run called the Legends of Cooperstown. It incorporates SOM's Hall of Fame set and many of my created NeL/J-Ball/Caribbean HoF players and it's been a blast to play, though I've gotten out of all of my current season SOM leagues to concentrate on my other projects.

I only had a few minutes at work to go thru your set and like I said, you put in a great deal of work and you should be commended for bringing it to everyone. I guess I kind of got lost when I saw Pop Lloyd rated fairly medicore and listed as a 2B, when he was known as 'the Black Honus Wagner' and should be a SS. It was Spotswood Poles that was known as 'the Black Ty Cobb'. Willie Foster is Big Bill Foster, I don't think there were two of them...and yes, he as Rube's half-brother. Arguably the greatest LH pitcher they produced in that era. It was Hilton Smith who finished many of Satchel's games, not Foster.

I'll keep going thru it and give you my input. Like I said, it's all opinion and conjecture and you can take or leave my opinions. I'm sure I'm wrong on many of them. I'll start with this, since I'm currently working up 1860's to 1890's players for my project: Billy Whyte was the forerunner to all the great black pitchers, pitched from 1880-1894 or so and should be in the set and rated highly. George Stovey is arguably one of the greatest NeL pitchers ever and their best in that pre-1900 era, though Whyte, Shep Trusty and Bob Higgins were all solid.

Bob Footes was a C, not a SS. I'm not sure if you had Antonio Garcia on a roster, but one of the greatest Cuban players of all time with a career that spanned over 20 years. Many of the very good to great Cuban players were in Cuba for many years before coming to the NeL's, so their NeL stats are brief and sometimes often at the end of their careers and not a true reflection. Jack Frye is another earlyl NeL star at 1B and I didn't notice the Walker brothers if they were on rosters. I know it's hard to know where to put some players, since many of those teams came and went before the early 1900's.

Bill Holland was more solid pitcher than what I think you have him listed as. Not sure if you had Harry 'Green River' Buckner, but another very talented pitcher who like Walter Ball is in the upper echelon. Also I think James 'the Black Rusie' Robinson should be a little better than rated. Charlie Grant I thought I saw on the same roster as Frank Grant and Bud Fowler, though not sure. You probably already know the story about him almost being passed off as a Native American by John McGraw to sneak him onto the Giant's roster.

Anyway, as I go thru the players, I'd be more than happy to give you more feedback if you'd like. One thing I did was sort the whole league by power, contact, etc to see how they all stacked up and it was surprising to see that. Take a look who is 2nd to Josh Gibson in power...it's not Turkey Stearnes or Mule Suttles or Oscar Charleston or Jud Wilson...and maybe too much power for Ray Dandridge and Willie Wells and some others, but again, just my opinion and I only glanced thru them.

Keep at it and have fun!
CPB

Simmed twice and note this league is heavily pitching dominated. Grand total of 5 .300 hitters avg ba = .239 League ERA was 3.22

I think you need to decide what it is you're trying to develope maybe. As Spritze pointed out, if it is pitching dominated, that may be due to the fact that you are rating players from different era's that may affect numbers, along with the fact that in a more All-Star dominated league you have deeper pitching staffs. If you are trying to come up with a historical NeL only, then the addition of more sub-par pitchers maybe spread over more teams may thin it out some. Or you may have to bump up hitters stats to better reflect the top hitters of the set. Or tweek your league numbers a bit so the better hitters perfrom better.

But if you are trying to develope a set of players that could be incorporated into a MLB roster set, then you may be on the right track. Again, I am no expert on stats, just my 2cents. The way I developed mine was to "integrate" year by year the players that came along, which spread out the talent and let them develope in a MLB historical career.