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JeffR 03-03-2013 01:46 AM

United Kingdom
 
Researcher: archibalduk

archibalduk 03-03-2013 04:01 PM

At this stage, the EIHL and EPL players have their Technical Ability ratings, Potentials and Templates entered (amongst other things). A fair proportion of the NIHL-1 has been provisionally rated, but I'll be re-rating this league as the rosters have changed substantially since I carried out the provisional ratings and there's a lot of new players without ratings. Hopefully once this is done we will see the NIHL-1 playable in game.

At the moment, the British teams and players don't seem to be performing all that realistically. My guess is that it is because the players are lacking any real ratings at this stage (E.g. Telford quite frequently finish towards the top and Guildford frequently finish towards the bottom). I know the EIHL and EPL aren't the only leagues to suffer from this in game.


What Needs Testing at the Moment?
My primary concern is the cross-over in ratings between the EIHL and EPL. Also, are the EIHL ratings correct in relation to leagues of similar levels?

Things that could be tested:
* How do good and poor EPL players perform in the EIHL when signed by EIHL teams?
* How do good and poor EIHL players perform in the EPL when signed by EPL teams?
* How do the weak/poor AHL players perform in the EIHL when signed by EIHL teams?
* How do mid-level and weaker ECHL players perform in the EIHL when signed by the EIHL?
* How do players from the Danish and Norwegian leagues perform in the EIHL when signed by the EIHL?


Most Important Features Missing from the Leagues?
In my view, there are two really key things missing which greatly affect the league's realism (ignoring complex features which couldn't feasibly make it into version 1 - such as cup tournaments):

1) The 2 week notice system used by all levels of league. At present, the UK leagues are using the standard transfer system. In reality, teams can release players by giving 2 weeks' notice (equally, a player can leave with 2 weeks' notice) without having to pay any contractual compensation. Teams only sign players as free agents (the transfer system isn't used).

2) The import rule. At present, we have the no foreigner rule. This isn't too far off, but I'd like to see an additional setting for this rule which counts players without a primary UK nationality as foreigners (even if they have a UK second nationality). This is probably a decent compromise considering that we'd never realistically see an IIHF card system in game.


Scoring Levels
Hopefully the correct league scoring levels will be added to the game in time for the first beta. But in case they're not, I've listed below the correct scoring levels. To set these you must enable the Commissioner Mode when starting your game. Then select the EIHL from the League Menu and click on League Settings.

From the League Settings Screen, you will need to enter the figures listed below. After you have done this, click on Save Changes (bottom right corner). Then click on drop-down menu towards the top of the screen to select the EPL, enter the correct settings and then click on Save Changes. You'll need to do this before you start simming any games.

EIHL
ES Goals/Game: 4.48
PP Goals/Game: 1.70
SH Goals/Game: 0.25

EPIHL
ES Goals/Game: 4.76
PP Goals/Game: 1.80
SH Goals/Game: 0.27

* Note that the EPIHL PP and SH scoring levels are just my estimates (I think I should be able to compile 100% accurate levels for these later), but it gives you the correct overall scoring level settings for the league.

Enjoy! :)

block15blaze 03-05-2013 01:26 PM

I've given the EIHL a little go today and the things which strike me (apart from those that you have outlined) are as follows:

All EIHL players have the same wage of 1k.

It is possible to sign any EIHL player from another team simply by offering a contract.

The majority of free players that I signed accepted 1k (I couldn't increase or decrease this amount) this includes ex NHLers.

Free agents list takes a while to populate and often crashes the game.

Free agents show no attribute ratings (prefer an option to mask these attributes if scouting is to be used to also be used to reveal them)

Players on EIHL rosters are generally on 1 or max 2 year contracts in real life. Currently a lot of players are showing as being on 4 year deals. 10 year contracts can be offered and are happily accepted.

No 'out of game' history for EIHL players.

No indication of what penalties are given for during the match day or on the match report.

Hopefully the game will be much improved over the coming months but at the moment the EIHL doesn't really work as a playable league option.

Alessandro 03-05-2013 01:57 PM

Archi, sorry if I reply for you while you're not at the computer

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
I've given the EIHL a little go today and the things which strike me (apart from those that you have outlined) are as follows:

All EIHL players have the same wage of 1k.

Players on EIHL rosters are generally on 1 or max 2 year contracts in real life. Currently a lot of players are showing as being on 4 year deals. 10 year contracts can be offered and are happily accepted.

This happens because non-NHL contracts are random in both salary and length

Quote:

No 'out of game' history for EIHL players.
This will be fixed as we continue the research job. You're welcome to offer your services, if you're interested.

archibalduk 03-05-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
All EIHL players have the same wage of 1k.

It is possible to sign any EIHL player from another team simply by offering a contract.

The majority of free players that I signed accepted 1k (I couldn't increase or decrease this amount) this includes ex NHLers.

The difficulty with the UK leagues is that contract details are kept secret except for contract length (as are contract details for virtually all Euro leagues). Additionally some players, such as many of the non-import Slough Jets IIRC, pay to play rather than have a salary per se. So it's going to be difficult to replicate the UK contract system in game - particularly the additional benefits EIHL teams offer such as university sponsorship, free rent, etc. So the best we can do is make a best guess (similarly with regards to the team finances) and try to ensure that the richer clubs (such as Nottingham and Sheffield) generally have the higher contracts.

At present, contract details have not been set in the UK leagues (non-NHL contracts are all 100% random in length, salary and conditions). This is because the Editor doesn't allow me to enter just the contract length - a salary has to be entered for each year. I suggested a while back to the devs that the contract length setting should be independent of the salary details. Hopefully this is something that can be implemented sooner rather than later so that I can get the contract lengths input.

As for the salaries, these are auto-generated by the game. Previously the salaries were way too high (around about NHL level) and so I dropped the league finance settings a bit. I'm not sure why it has dropped that low. Once we're allowed to update the league finances settings again, I'll take a look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
Free agents list takes a while to populate and often crashes the game.

You'll need to report that as a bug via the crashes forum: FHM - Beta Bug Reports - OOTP Developments Forums

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
Free agents show no attribute ratings (prefer an option to mask these attributes if scouting is to be used to also be used to reveal them)

This is not UK specific. You'll need to post that in the beta forum as a suggestion/annoyance: FHM - Public Beta Test - OOTP Developments Forums

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
Players on EIHL rosters are generally on 1 or max 2 year contracts in real life. Currently a lot of players are showing as being on 4 year deals. 10 year contracts can be offered and are happily accepted.

Please see my first comment in this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
No 'out of game' history for EIHL players.

We haven't entered player career histories yet. It's the lowest priority (rating players and keeping rosters and teams up to date are our priorities).

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456416)
No indication of what penalties are given for during the match day or on the match report.

This is not UK specific. You'll need to post that in the beta forum as a suggestion/annoyance (but keep in mind that this is a beta and it's probably something that'll be added in due course): FHM - Public Beta Test - OOTP Developments Forums


EDIT: Thanks Alessandro! Seems we both responded at the same time. :)

Garethw87 03-05-2013 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibalduk (Post 3456456)
The difficulty with the UK leagues is that contract details are kept secret except for contract length (as are contract details for virtually all Euro leagues). Additionally some players, such as many of the non-import Slough Jets IIRC, pay to play rather than have a salary per se. So it's going to be difficult to replicate the UK contract system in game - particularly the additional benefits EIHL teams offer such as university sponsorship, free rent, etc. So the best we can do is make a best guess (similarly with regards to the team finances) and try to ensure that the richer clubs (such as Nottingham and Sheffield) generally have the higher contracts.

EHM did an ok job with the Elite League and EPL salaries.. can we not just follow theirs? It's a start atleast until somebody could unearth some better information..

As for the perks on salaries in the UK like Uni course, cars, rent paid ect.. are you aiming to include these into the game or just pointing out so people know how difficult getting it right is?

archibalduk 03-05-2013 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garethw87 (Post 3456470)
As for the perks on salaries in the UK like Uni course, cars, rent paid ect.. are you aiming to include these into the game or just pointing out so people know how difficult getting it right is?

I'm just pointing out that it's a case of setting things to a level that appears reasonable as compared to the rest of the FHM leagues. We'll never get it to reflect real life.

Cryomaniac 03-05-2013 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garethw87 (Post 3456470)
As for the perks on salaries in the UK like Uni course, cars, rent paid ect.. are you aiming to include these into the game or just pointing out so people know how difficult getting it right is?

That would be cool, but I'd imagine it's waaay too much work lol.

block15blaze 03-05-2013 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessandro (Post 3456450)
This happens because non-NHL contracts are random in both salary and length

This will be fixed as we continue the research job. You're welcome to offer your services, if you're interested.

To make the EIHL and indeed other Euro leagues a playable option contracts should generally be set to 1 or 2 years maximum.

As a regular player of EHM a few years ago, one of the biggest enjoyments was building a side each off-season as in real life.

I would be happy to help with the research. I have been watching UK hockey for around 13 years now so I would feel confident enough to help out in anyway I can. Feel free to contact me directly craig_s96@hotmail.com

I will report the bugs in the appropriate places thanks archibalduk

In response to the final point about salaries.

As Garethw87 pointed out EHM did a decent enough job of this, I think the 'top' players at that time were on about 40k per year and downwards as seen appropriate but it's been a long time since I played.

To be honest I don't think it would be too difficult to find someone who knows the innter workings within the EIHL to get some kind of estimate level between a top earner and a low level Brit for example and make estimates inbetween.

As for adding 'extras' into a contract, I don't feel it a priority but is something that could be looked into such as bonus for being selected in the all star team or top scorer etc, this could also include a bonus of a car/education etc.

Cryomaniac 03-05-2013 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by block15blaze (Post 3456662)
As for adding 'extras' into a contract, I don't feel it a priority but is something that could be looked into such as bonus for being selected in the all star team or top scorer etc, this could also include a bonus of a car/education etc.

It could be abstracted, in the sense of just making some players slightly more likely to sign if you add those clauses, and adding a certain amount of money to your non-salary expenses if you add them.

archibalduk 03-05-2013 05:28 PM

Malte mentioned a short while ago that the contract lengths can now be entered independent of the salaries in the Editor. So I'll get the EIHL contracts entered this weekend (and EPL if I have time). Seeing as it is hoped that the DB will be released weekly, hopefully we'll have proper contract lengths in game next week.

Scravenger 03-05-2013 06:18 PM

I don't know if it's the right place for that, but Michael Will, of the Braehead Clan in the EIHL, is set as 15'10'' and 86 lbs :S ;)

Garethw87 03-05-2013 07:50 PM

Archi, regarding Elite league salaries. Cardiff Devils GM recently said in an interview that the team needs an extra 200 or so fans each game to support a £6,000 per week wage budget

dstone51 03-05-2013 11:45 PM

All the player heights and weights are entered for metric but in imperial like the previous poster mentioned. i.e. 15'3", 86 lbs instead of 153 cm, 86 kg.

archibalduk 03-06-2013 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scravenger (Post 3456755)
I don't know if it's the right place for that, but Michael Will, of the Braehead Clan in the EIHL, is set as 15'10'' and 86 lbs :S ;)

Yeah this is the right place. The Editor document stated that we could use either imperial or metric, but it turns out this is wrong. So players in various Euro leagues have the wrong imperial heights and weights. The heights have all been fixed for this weekend's database. I'm not sure how the devs plan to fix the weights en masse. But rest assured we're aware of it.

As I understand it, the heights and weights are only cosmetic at the moment. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garethw87 (Post 3456830)
Archi, regarding Elite league salaries. Cardiff Devils GM recently said in an interview that the team needs an extra 200 or so fans each game to support a £6,000 per week wage budget

That seems to support my estimates. It's difficult to find details of the current salary cap, but people in the know about the financial side of the EIHL have suggested it's approx £7,000 - £7,300 per week. So that's the equivalent of £364,000 - £379,600 per annum. That is of course based on a 52 week year whereas I believe most/all hockey players are not paid during parts of the off-season.

It was "common knowledge" that when Stevie Lyle was at Basingstoke (when they were still in the EIHL in 2007) that he was earning about £850 - £900 per week. So that's about £46,800 per annum.

Apparently the top British players (i.e. those on the top two lines at the richer clubs) earn about £1,000+ per week. So that's £50,000+ per annum. The imports in fact earn less (but they get the various other benefits we've mentioned before).

Additional things we need to take into account are:

* The various extras that players get (e.g. rent and tuition fees). Tuition fees for UK students are now about £9,000 per year depending on the university - it's normally even higher for foreigners (I remember in 2002 foreign students at my uni were paying nearly £20,000 per annum compared to about the £3,000 I was paying). Depending on the size of the player's family (and whether they come to live in the UK from North America, etc), rent could be a fair bit - particularly seeing as most teams are in a city centre (certainly the richer teams are). So this probably brings the imports up to the same sort of salary as the top British players if you were to put a monetary value on these sorts of benefits (at the richer clubs at least).

* The richer clubs (e.g. Nottingham, Sheffield, etc) have a reputation for having salary bills above the salary cap. The cap is never enforced by the EIHL as far as I'm aware.

* There is a huge divergence in the salaries offered by different teams because there is a huge divergence in wealth.

So this is why I'm thinking we should initially be set the maximum salary at about £60,000 per annum and we see how that looks in game. How does that match up with the French maximum salary?

DISCLAIMER: All of the above is based on hearsay from others (either having read online or having spoken to people). The league and teams keep all of this stuff private and so it's difficult to know what's right and what's wrong.

Garethw87 03-06-2013 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibalduk (Post 3457137)
That seems to support my estimates. It's difficult to find details of the current salary cap, but people in the know about the financial side of the EIHL have suggested it's approx £7,000 - £7,300 per week. So that's the equivalent of £364,000 - £379,600 per annum. That is of course based on a 52 week year whereas I believe most/all hockey players are not paid during parts of the off-season.

It was "common knowledge" that when Stevie Lyle was at Basingstoke (when they were still in the EIHL in 2007) that he was earning about £850 - £900 per week. So that's about £46,800 per annum.

Apparently the top British players (i.e. those on the top two lines at the richer clubs) earn about £1,000+ per week. So that's £50,000+ per annum. The imports in fact earn less (but they get the various other benefits we've mentioned before).

Additional things we need to take into account are:

* The various extras that players get (e.g. rent and tuition fees). Tuition fees for UK students are now about £9,000 per year depending on the university - it's normally even higher for foreigners (I remember in 2002 foreign students at my uni were paying nearly £20,000 per annum compared to about the £3,000 I was paying). Depending on the size of the player's family (and whether they come to live in the UK from North America, etc), rent could be a fair bit - particularly seeing as most teams are in a city centre (certainly the richer teams are). So this probably brings the imports up to the same sort of salary as the top British players if you were to put a monetary value on these sorts of benefits (at the richer clubs at least).

* The richer clubs (e.g. Nottingham, Sheffield, etc) have a reputation for having salary bills above the salary cap. The cap is never enforced by the EIHL as far as I'm aware.

* There is a huge divergence in the salaries offered by different teams because there is a huge divergence in wealth.

So this is why I'm thinking we should initially be set the maximum salary at about £60,000 per annum and we see how that looks in game. How does that match up with the French maximum salary?

DISCLAIMER: All of the above is based on hearsay from others (either having read online or having spoken to people). The league and teams keep all of this stuff private and so it's difficult to know what's right and what's wrong.

With Cardiff having the same sized rink as Manchester I'd suspect they aren't paying as much as Nottingham, Sheffield or Belfast anyway! As far as I'm aware that is what Stevie Lyle was earning yes!

I'd agree that £60,000 per annum would be a fair number. The EIHL manages to get some very good imports over these days, and they won't be coming for free. Eliteprospects.com - Ladislav Benysek < him for example. And yes the EIHL wage cap is never enforced :p

The other things to think or are the coperate sponsors that pay the players wages. Maybe not so in the EIHL but it seems to be common in the EPL and below. I seen it quoted on the Telford Tigers website about a player that recently left. Tony Hand at Manchester was earning £1,000 per week last season... again according to 'people who knew' but him being the top player in the league and the Head Coach £500 per week for each role is about right in the EPL for a big name guy.

archibalduk 03-06-2013 11:50 AM

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Much appreciated. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garethw87 (Post 3457318)
The other things to think or are the coperate sponsors that pay the players wages. Maybe not so in the EIHL but it seems to be common in the EPL and below. I seen it quoted on the Telford Tigers website about a player that recently left. Tony Hand at Manchester was earning £1,000 per week last season... again according to 'people who knew' but him being the top player in the league and the Head Coach £500 per week for each role is about right in the EPL for a big name guy.

That ties in quite well with what I was suggesting to Jeff - that we should be aiming for a maximum salary of £30,000 pa for the EPL. The EPL is always going to be a difficult one to get right in the game due to the huge variation of salary (from £30k pa all the way down to pay to play) in addition to the corporate sponsorship you mention (I wasn't aware of that - learned something new!). I think for the sake of playability in game we should be aiming to ensure that the EPL offers the same maximum salary in game as it does in real life (if nothing else, to ensure that in game, older EIHL players and weaker imports are willing to sign).

The same goes with the NIHL - we need something that enables teams to fill their two import slots.

Garethw87 03-06-2013 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibalduk (Post 3457379)

The same goes with the NIHL - we need something that enables teams to fill their two import slots.

I've always wondered how do NIHL teams manage to sign import players! I'd imagine alot might be students again just looking for anywhere to play while they study? But as you say making it work on FHM might be interesting :p

archibalduk 03-06-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garethw87 (Post 3457400)
I've always wondered how do NIHL teams manage to sign import players! I'd imagine alot might be students again just looking for anywhere to play while they study? But as you say making it work on FHM might be interesting :p

I've always wondered this too. I don't think many of them are students. As I understand it (and my knowledge on the finances of this league is practically zero) most players pay to play and/or get expenses. In fact just last week my local team (Invicta Dynamos) released two players for not taking their commitments seriously enough, with the head coach blaming the low expenses allowance and players' work commitments:

Quote:

“We’ve had players not turn up for training, but there’s nothing we can do about it when players are ill, injured or have work commitments. They don’t get enough expenses, so you can understand it and I believe we’re not the only team struggling with it.”

[...]

“Unfortunately, Callum Best will also be going and that might be a shock to people. He told me last week that he couldn’t play because of a foot injury and then I found out he was away in Switzerland this weekend skiing.”

“That’s not good enough for me and I’ve also found out that he’s broken his collarbone, so I’m not very happy at the moment.”

[...]

“We can’t just have nine guys turning up for training. At the start of the season everyone signed a contract saying they were willing to play for the whole year.”
However the head coach of Solent & Gosport stated in an interview last October that the top NIHL-1 South teams have wage bills of £2,500 per month. For a full 52 week year that's £130,000 (although I'd expect players would only be paid during the 28 week or so regular season). My guess is that the money goes on just the top players of the team (and the weaker/junior players probably just get their expenses). Invicta is one of the teams understood as paying players wages. Considering it seems they're not paying the likes of Callum Best and Joe Bliss (two of their better players - the two who are referred to in the quote above), I wonder who does actually receive any form of salary.


Quote:

Originally Posted by archibalduk (Post 3454343)
At the moment, the British teams and players don't seem to be performing all that realistically. My guess is that it is because the players are lacking any real ratings at this stage (E.g. Telford quite frequently finish towards the top and Guildford frequently finish towards the bottom). I know the EIHL and EPL aren't the only leagues to suffer from this in game.

Following the most recent beta, the situation is mildly better (Telford are no longer finishing towards the top of the table - but they're still too strong by some way). I wonder perhaps if a goalie bug which existed prior to the public beta was having any effect. Nonetheless, the EPL in particular is too unrealistic at the moment. I think maybe I've been too generous in rating the players in the weaker teams. Manchester seem to be grossly over-performing which seems a little odd because I remember when rating them that the Guildford and Basingstoke players were generally rated on a par with Manchester. It looks like Manchester starts and/or signs players the game creates (and these players seem very strong - one finished top scorer in season #1). The Manchester roster is very small in real life (only 8 forwards IIRC) so it seems the game fills the roster out at the beginning of the game.

I'm going to take a closer look and adjust things this weekend (including some parts of the EIHL).

Garethw87 03-06-2013 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibalduk (Post 3457674)

However the head coach of Solent & Gosport stated in an interview last October that the top NIHL-1 South teams have wage bills of £2,500 per month. For a full 52 week year that's £130,000 (although I'd expect players would only be paid during the 28 week or so regular season). My guess is that the money goes on just the top players of the team (and the weaker/junior players probably just get their expenses). Invicta is one of the teams understood as paying players wages. Considering it seems they're not paying the likes of Callum Best and Joe Bliss (two of their better players - the two who are referred to in the quote above), I wonder who does actually receive any form of salary.
.

Interesting info, I didn't realise this. That's a decent amount for such a low-level team, wonder where they get it from?

The NIHL looks like it might end up being a fun league once it's finished!


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