Tweaks, Adjustments & Ratings Changes
 

From time to time I've made changes and "tweaks" to fighter ratings that I've shared back and forth through PM's. I thought I'd start posting those changes here. It makes it easier to keep track of all of them. I've been doing this since 1979 and have kept up with all of the changes the game has gone through.

This, creating and modifying fighters, is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game!

The current ratings and all the attention that's given to them are by far the best yet. Here in this. So here we go! :o

TONY ZALE (Middleweight Champion)

Absorb Punishment changed from 2 to 1.

The "Man of Steel" as he was known, had the capacity to absorb all kinds of punishment before succumbing to a TKO or KO defeat. I thought the current rating of 2 didn't reflect that and changed it to a 1.

BATTLING NELSON (Lightweight Champion)

Here's another fighter with an Absorb Punishment rating of 2 that I changed to a 1. My reasoning? Well, as even his game biography states, "He almost seemed SUPERHUMAN in the amount of punishment he could take."

Changing Nelson's Absorb Punishment rating to a 1 will not change his overall rating, but it will allow you to sim he fight results to more realistically reflect the amount of punishment this 135 pounder was able to stand.

Good stuff, Jim
Thanks for sharing

bear

You're welcome :o. I'll post my changes as I come back across them.

The Original Joe Walcott
 

Joe Walcott - The Barbados Demon (Welterweight Champion)

Currenty Hitting Power rating: 5
Changed to: 10

Joe had legitimate one punch power. I could have made this rating a 12, but I felt that the 3 point punches were enough to create the balance between accumulated punches and the power of a single shot landed.

Consider the following below:
Police News August 28, 1895 - "Walcott now surpasses any of our welterweights, unless it be (Mysterious) Billy Smith, in the telling execution of a single blow. I do not see how he is to be beaten by any foeman who will give him hit for hit. Any man except a very big man whom he gets his right hand on to fairly and squarely isn't coming up for much more. Walcott in his dumpy, dwarf monitor build, his hardness of flesh, his power of punching and the small surface he offers for return hits, is in a class by himself-different from anything else in the field."


Walcott's manager, Tom O'Rourke, also handled heavyweight contender Sailor Tom Sharkey, whom some historians compare favorably to Rocky Marciano. Sharkey twice went the distance with heavyweight champion Jim Jeffries. O'Rourke once stated, (Fleischer, p. 198-199), "I had to stop Walcott from sparring with the sailor because Joe dumped him on his ear one afternoon in the gym."

The National Police Gazette Oct 27, 1894, supports this view “His neck is 18 inches and his chest expanded is 41 inches, which is remarkable for a man of his weight”

The April 20, 1895 Gazette described Walcott’s power thusly, “His delivery was terrific having the force of a pile driver.” One blow from Walcott was said to be equal “to five” of his opponent’s.

Nat Fleischer called Walcott, (Black Dynamite Vol 3. p 196), "a sawed off Hercules, an abnormally powerful puncher." He also said, "Men who fought him were sorely handicapped...for all his opponents were taller, and their blows usually landed on his shoulders or on top of his granite skull. Probably more men ruined their hands on Walcott than on any other scrapper of that day."

Ray Leonard
 

Sugar Ray Leonard (Welterweight)

Hitting Power: 9

Change hitting power to: 8 or possibly 7.

I dropped Ray's hitting power to an 8. Ray Leonard is rated as being a boxer/slugger. With Control Factors of 11/11, a counter punching rating of 44, and plenty of 3 point punches... you might even make a case for rating Ray Leonard's power around 7.

I'm staying with the original idea of the hitting power being indicative of "single punch, concussive power."

Ray Leonard was a very sharp puncher, but not a bomber. Like Aaron Pryor who resided on division below at Jr. Welterweight, Leonard stopped opponents with an accumulation of punches as opposed to a single punch.

From this "angle," I see a fighter with a hitting power of 9 and higher possessing the type of power that can have an opponent unconscious before he hits the canvas. The higher the number indicates the frequency that type of punch lands!

Keep this coming, Jim
One thing about Barbados Joe. He stopped Joe Choynski, a much larger, and very skilled man. Always felt Joe's HP should not be lower than 8.

Hedgemon Lewis (Welterweight Champion)

Greg (alias Mad Bomber) shared this one with me.

Hedgemon is rated as a 5 in the game. Part of overall rating comes his chin ratings which look like this:

Chin vs Knockdown (the old KDR1 rating): 4
Chin vs Knockout: 3
Recovery: 2

The thing is; Hedgemon Lewis was never knocked down.

Here's Greg's version of Lewis which will give your sim a much more accurate version of the real fighter. Poor Lewis' bad chin rating goes all the way back to the 1979 card ratings.:

Hedgemon Lewis

Control Boxer - 9
Control Slugger - 9
Chin KD - 1
Chin KO - 1
Recovery - 1
Res Cuts - 2
Absorb Punish - 3
Killer Instinct - 4
Aggressivness - 8
Endurance - 7
Defense - -2
Fast Starter - 2
On Ropes - 1

PS. He can be TKO'd, but he'll be standing when it happens as opposed to snoozing on the floor!

Thanks for the thumbs up :o.
Here comes a few adjustments for Tony Galento...

Tony Galento (Heavyweight)
Tony's hitting power is rated as an 8. That would be a good rating for the post-prime version of Two-Ton.

I upped it to: HP 11
Why?

Joe Louis took punches from some big punchers during his career. Included that of Rocky Marciano who stopped him when he was well past his prime. When asked who hit the hardest, he said, "That little fat man Galento. No one every hurt me with punches like he did. Not even Marciano."

Galento was never the same after getting stopped by Joe Louis which was the first time he'd ever been knocked down in his career. After that fight, he stopped Lou Nova in the 14th round and went straight downhill from there.

Of all the fighters I've met and have shaken hands with, Tony Galento had the biggest hands I've ever seen in my life!

Tony told my grandfather who worked in his and Jersey Joe Walcott's camp as one of the trainers that he gave everything he had against Joe Louis. After that fight, he was done as a top-flight fighter.

Remember, by the time he fought Joe Louis, he already had over 100 fights! And that's with a "face-first, you hit me, I hit you" style. With a defense of 4, a case could be made that it should be a "5", he probably had a TKO rating of 1 in his prime, but I've left it as a 2.

Back in Jersey at the time, Jersey Joe Walcott and others said that he was probably the only fighter in history who could have fought John L. Sullivan toe-to-toe over 20 rounds and have beaten him, he was that durable.

Yeah, you're probably right. The only defense Tony had was his offense. The only time he wasn't getting hit was when his opponent was ducking oncoming punches - which was frequently!

Check out his record at boxrec.com and you'll see how many times he had opponents on the floor! He could be outboxed and he bled around the eyes. He wasn't a bleeder like Chuck Wepner. In over 100 fights he only lost a handful due to cuts. I would say a 3 would be about right.

The thing that made Tony Galento so exciting was, you didn't beat him by standing and trading with him. The only person who succeeded in doing so at his toughest was Louis. By the time Max Baer fought him, he was already on the downside.

It's amazing that he had the stamina he did. Like Baer, he rarely trained hard and drank like there was no tomorrow.

great, great stuff Jim.

I'm sure it helped Tony to have Whitey Bimstein handling his cuts, and I believe Whitey to be underated in this capacity in the game. Here is my adjusted rating for Whitey.

Swelling 9
Cuts 11

Thank you Jim
 

Thank you Jim for these rating changes. I was thinking of changing Zales rating to a 1 also. I am looking foward to your other changes and the reason for them are interesting also.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I've made and make so many little tweaks here and there - I'll post them as I come across them.

Bob Fitzsimmons - Middleweight Ranking
 

Bob Fitzsimmons (Middleweight)

Ruby Robert is the first fighter to hold world championships in 3 weight divisions. His career lasted an amazing 34 years! Many of his fights were unrecorded and Bob himself claims to have fought over 300 bouts during his career.

His current HP at Middleweight is 11.

I changed his HP to: 13

Why mess with a nice high rating like 11?

Consider these little known facts about the man who held the Heavyweight Championship of the world while basically being a Middleweight.

In 1893 he fought and knocked out 7 fighters in one night! And each of them weighed over 200 lbs! One tipped the scales at 240 and stood 6' 7".

That's Klitschko or Lewis' size in the modern era.

Even if they were "bums" - Fitzsimmons accomplished this fighting in the 160 lb weight range.

If that's not enough, he also defeated Heavyweights such as Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey and Gus Ruhlin. He didn't decision them, either. He knocked them out!

Nat Fleischer who saw all the greats from Jack Johnson to Muhammad Ali in his lifetime called Bob Fitzsimmons - P4P the greatest knockout puncher of all time! He picked Fitz over fighters such as Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Liston. Pound for pound.

Now, imagine that a fighter, who had a physique similar to that of Thomas Hearns, but with an even bigger punch, hitting a 160 lb fighter instead of a 200 + pound man?

His power would have more than likely eclipsed Stanley Ketchel and any other Middleweight you care to think of, before the age of steriods and performing enhancing "vitamins!"

Joe Gans, lightweight champion 1902-1908, stated, Feb. 2, 1908 NY Times, “I consider Bob Fitzsimmons as one of the greatest exponents of straight hitting that the prize ring has ever known. Fitz was a wonderful fighter and all of his straight punches were very effective. Until age set in and his hands went back on him, there were few fighters able to withstand that famous shift of his. When Fitz delivered a blow he carried the whole weight of his body with it.”

Nat Fleischer also said, “Fitzsimmons, who took the crown from Corbett, was not a slugger of the Sullivan type, nor did he approach Corbett in boxing skill. Yet he was the greatest strategist in the ring's history, a man of wonderful vitality, and the most accurate and deadliest hitter of the class. To reach Jim Corbett in the pit of the stomach with knockout force was a feat for a magician, and Fitz was a magician. Where others signally failed, Fitz succeeded through strategic feinting to induce Corbett to raise his guard and open the way for a left shift and a crashing blow to the solar plexus.”

Fitz was as close as they come to being unbeatable as a Middleweight. He starched the Champion - Jack Dempsey the Nonpareil while weighing only 150 pounds.

Fitz stood 5' 11 1/2 inches tall - the same height as Carlos Monzon and enjoyed the physical advantages Monzon did in the Middleweight division and appears to have had an even longer reach. When you combine Fitzsimmon's unbelievable power at 160 along with his defensive ability and boxing skill, he very well may have been the Greatest Middleweight of them all.

Early ring historian Sandy Griswold said in the Dec 24, 1904 National Police Gazette, “He knows all the vulnerable spots of the human anatomy as well as the most erudite surgeon in the business and has a greater variety of effective blows than any fighter who ever lived.”

Fitz won the Light Heavyweight title in 1903 at the age of 40. Those who witnessed Fitzsimmons fight in person came away with opinions that sounded similar to those who saw Ray Robinson fight in his prime.

Great changes Jim.

Fernando Vargas
 

I had a heck of a time recreating an accurate sim for his career.
His prime was short-lived.

But consider this; at his best he fought very competitively with the following fighters

Winky Wright (He won a close decision. Some people thought he lost, but either way, it was close)

Ike Quartey (He out-toughed the very tough Quartey in the championship rounds)

Felix Trinidad (He floored Trinidad early, absorbed some tremendous bombs, and fought competitively until he was finally gunned down in 12th)

Oscar DeLaHoya (another great effort but came up short at the end)

The current ratings for Fernando Vargas make achieving the above results an impossibility)

Remember, the "chinny version" of Vargas we now see is the results of kayo losses to Trinidad and DeLaHoya. Those two fighters moved him from the "tough to beat" column to the "this car has had major repairs" column. That version fell even farther when Shane Mosley twice stopped him.

In order to recreate a prime Vargas, up his CF's from 10 to 11.
Also, he good offense and high workrate made him a little tougher to hit.
I changed his defense from a +2 to a +1.

With this version, I was able recreate a few of his historic performances without going overboard.

In my universe, he was kayoed by Julian Jackson. I then changed his rating to the current rating (I kept the first version that came with the game). He's now back to the CF's of 10/10 and has a defense of +2

Last night, he made a had his first comeback fight. I used the 10/10 ratings as I explained about above.

That version got brutally kayoed by a "nobody!" So, now, I'm dropping the 10/10 version to "post-prime" and have a very close simulation to his actual career.

With some fighters, I find it easier to create different versions to simulate different parts of their careers. Especially those who were very good, but suffered from the fast burnout syndrome after suffering their first major loss.

Here's the adjusted Fernando Vargas along with the "regular" version

A guy who is way underrated is Jessie Burnett. I've changed him to a 7. But I think he is normally a 3 or 4.

The guy took most fights on 2 weeks notice against some fantastic fighters. lost 2 of 3 razor close fights with Yacqui Lopez. Split two with galindez.

Got robbed by John Conteh in a fight the British crowd jeered their own fighter when it was called a draw.

Perfect example of a fighter that his record doesn't come close to telling his tale.

Michael Spinks Changes
 

Changes to Michael Spinks ratings


1. A TKO rating of 1
That number is reserved for those who could soak up inhuman amouts of punishement like a Tex Cobb or Jake LaMotta. Even a Marvin Hagler or Rocky Marciano who could walk through bombs and still be firing away. Does that sound like Michael Spinks? A 2 would be much more realistic.

2. A chin rating of 1
Again, Michael Spinks was rocked throughout his career and flattened against Tyson. Although that was at Heavyweight, it's very hard to see him having at Light Heavyweight, a better chin than, let's say - Larry Holmes did at Heavyweight. He didn't exactly face any Archie Moore's, Ezzard Charles's, Bob Fosters, Gene Tunney's, Harry Greb's, etc. during his reign. Rating him amongst the all-time fighters, I give him a 2 for his chin and a knockout rating of 1. Still excellent and more realistic.

I wouldn't doubt if Marvin Hagler had defeated him had he risen in weight. Hagler was great against tall, ranging guys like Spinks who liked to fight on the outside. Spinks had a big right hand, but if Hagler could take it, then he'd really have his hands full.

Adjusting the two ratings mentioned above, at least from where I'm sitting, creates a more accurate version of the real Michael Spinks.

Rating Michael Spinks who only fought 32 times as a 14 along with fighters like Gene Tunney (86 fights) and Archie Moore (200+) who fought some of the greatest fighters ever to lace up the gloves seems a bit imbalanced.

If Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore or Bob Foster – fighters with skill are power beyond David Sears, Willie Edwards or Eddie Mustapha Muhammad nailed Spinks solidly at Light Heavyweight, I see him not faring all that much better than he did when Tyson nailed him at Heavyweight. The difference being, he could probably get up at least once. The changes listed in this post drop Spink's overall rating from a 14 to a 13 - equal to Ezzard Charles and many other Light Heavyweight Greats.

Disagree on the chin. He fought Qawi, Mustapha Muhammad, Marvin Johnson, Yacqui Lopez & even Rossman could bang. Not one of them had him even slightly wobbled.

Gentlemen, friends and esteemed Title Bout colleagues… after hundreds of play testing simulations, re-reading back issues of World Boxing, KO and Ring Magazines and endless nights spent in restless deliberation…

I give to you…

Greg Haugen!

His overall rating may seem a tad high, but his performances have been so “spot on,” I could have sworn I heard the words coming faintly from my PC speakers, “Don’t call me, Mutt!”

By the way, the 1980's was Boxing's last great golden age. If Greg Haugen were in his prime today... he'd...

you know the rest of the story.

Actually, the Lightweights are very good today. He'd be up there somewhere!

Joe Walcott (Welterweight)

The original Joe Walcott had huge, one-power power. Walcott’s manager was a man named Tom O’Rourke who also managed the infamous – Sailor Tom Sharkey. During a sparring session, a single punch from Walcott once deposited Sharkey on his face. That’s the type of one-punch power he had.

In the game, his hitting power is a 5. I changed this to a 10. It could possibly be higher.

Joe Walcott is often credited with coining the phrase, “The Bigger They Come, The Harder They Fall.”

He spoke from experience.

The Aug, 28, 1895 Police News stated, "Walcott now surpasses any of our welterweights, unless it be (Mysterious) Billy Smith, in the telling execution of a single blow. I do not see how he is to be beaten by any foeman who will give him hit for hit. Any man except a very big man whom he gets his right hand on to fairly and squarely isn't coming up for much more. Walcott in his dumpy, dwarf monitor build, his hardness of flesh, his power of punching and the small surface he offers for return hits, is in a class by himself-different from anything else in the field."

“His neck is 18 inches and his chest expanded is 41 inches, which is remarkable for a man of his weight” (138 to 147 pounds)

Walcott’s reputation as a puncher was such that he began having difficulties finding other Welterweights or even Middleweights to fight him. He eventually wound up issuing challenges to Heavyweights to keep food on the table. Tom Sharkey and Champion Jim Jeffries both declined the challenges.

Those who followed Walcott’s career closely said a great majority of his fights were never recorded and that he easily KO’d close to 100 men, most likely more during the course of his career.

The one fight that illustrates all the above better than any other would be Joe Walcott's battle against Joe Choynski. Choyinski had gone 28 rounds against Jim Corbett, and drew with the likes of Bob Fitzsimmons and Al "Kid" MCcoy and would knock out a young Jack Johnson the following year.

Choyinski outweighed Walcott 173 to 137 pounds and was a 5-1 favorite to beat the game little Walcott. Joe Walcott floored Choyinski several times in the first round and stopped him in the 7th.

Keep in mind, Walcott only stood 5 feet 1 and a half inches tall! He was like a human muscle who punished and outfought, not out-boxed or out-ran, Heavyweights!

If you caught Joe Walcott with a really good shot, he could be stopped. He was, after all, only 5’ 1 ½ inches tall and weighed on average about 140 pounds. Catching him with that shot while being hit with “hammers” wasn’t an easy task!


Attached is my version of the Original “Joe Walcott.”

I love your tweaks Jim. Speaking of smaller guys slaying "giants"........one of my favorite old time fighters is Bob Fitzsimmons and i'm always telling people that if he was around today......he'd take out both Klitchsko's on the same day. IMO "Ruby Robert" could match or exceed them in strength, scientific fighting, and power. Wouldn't count him out against Valuev, either.

If Fitzsimmons could beat the Klitschko's he certainly would have no problem with Valuev.

You are absolutely right Greg. It might be a bit more difficult but Fitzsimmons would take him out as well.

I'd definitely favor Walcott against the smaller HW's like Chagaev, Povetkin, ect.

About 35 years ago, around 1974, one of the old-timers was talking about Bob Fitzsimmons. Fitz was as unusual a person outside of the ring as he was in it. He kept a pet Lion in the house and around his property. His wife, I think her name was Rosie, was a big woman as he was a skinny guy. She was his biggest fan and "advisor." She would scream strategy from ringside telling him, "I said go to the body!!!" if he wasn't following her instructions.

One day, a young guy came to his house seeking guidance in becoming a professional fighter. He was led in by a doorman to the study where Bob was sitting quietly reading a book.

The young guy told him why he was there and Bob Fitzsimmons kept reading, ignoring him. Then he repeated himself and Fitz jumped to his feet and hit him with left that sent him flying across the floor, rolling head over heals.

"That's your first lesson," he said sitting back down again. "Keep your guard up at all times."

Dozens of stories about strange behavior from Ruby Robert as they called him, were told back at that time.

If he fought today, he'd be a millionaire many, many times over. His physical dimensions, skill and power made him one of the very best pound for pound fighters in history.

He could be hurt by the giants like Jim Jeffries, though. But he could also bust them up and stop them if they couldn't nail him flush.

Much like little Joe Walcott mentioned a few posts up.


.

This is a ficticious fighter I created "Bazooka Joe Mack" who is designed to be a modern "Marciano-like, Jim Jeffries-like" character that can fit into just about any universe situation.

Joe Mack can be Italian, Irish, Jewish, you name it. The left the bio fairly open but with enough details to provide an interesting (hopefully) framework.

Joe is a swarming-type of Heavyweight who uses a crossarm, bobbing, weaving defense as he applies relentless pressure from one round to the next, relying heavily upon conditioning.

Is the name "Bazooka Joe" based upon his punching power... or the fact that he likes good old-fashion Bazooka Joe Bubble gum?

That's up for everyone else to decide :p.

Terry McGovern
 

I'm currently working on "Terrible" Terry McGovern who ratings look to be underrated since the game's card days back in the late 1970's. McGovern's defensive abilities seems to have been much, much better than it appears on the surface from some of the older articles I've read.

Nat Fleischer rates him as the best Featherweight of all time... above Willie Pep. Others rate him at 1 or 2 in the all-time Bantamweight ratings. He also took a shot at the Lightweight Champion and knocked him out in a handful of rounds in a non-title bout shortly after winning the Featherweight title. His reputation seems to run a parrallel with Sonny Liston's at the time. He was considered to be invincible with no visible weaknesses in offense, defense, stamina, etc.

After suffering his first defeat at Featherweight as a result of what some said to be overconfidence, he was never the same again. Very few fighters held two or more titles or captured them so quickly as he did in a era when there were only 7 titles.

More on Terry in the very near future!

McGovern
 

Yeah, in my Uni (a historical one) McGovern definitely underperformed versus RL. His first 30 bouts as BW, he went 22-8, losing all four World title shots versus Jimmy Barry (who, after all, did go undefeated IRL) but also losing to Harry Harris. When I moved him up to FW he did a bit better, eventually capturing a World title belt after losses to Attell, Harry Lyons and Aurelio Herrera (Herrera may have been a cuts stoppage, Lyons was a surprising KO 3 loss). It wasn't until 1906 in my Uni (several years after his RL success) when he TKO'd Jem Driscoll for the FW World title belt, following with wins over Young Griffo, Brooklyn Tommy Sullivan, Tommy Love and George Dixon before losing to Attell again. After that he hit Post-Prime in 1908 and was no longer a serious title threat. His career mark was 37-20-1 (33 KOs), with eight of the losses at Post and End career stage.

Incidentally, the first time I recall hearing about McGovern was some old book of "Ripley's Believe It or Not" as a kid, where he was reputed to be the first boxer to hold three different World titles at once. Of course, based on what I have read since, that honor goes to Hammerin' Hank Armstrong, not McGovern.

Anyway, an all-time great, definite HoF caliber fighter, no matter how you look at it.

Here's Terrible Terry McGovern tested over 3 months.
He defeated the best at Bantamweight, Featherweight and Lightweight at his best. He was as dominant as any fighter who ever laced up the gloves - albeit, in a short span of time. When he lost to Young Corbett, it was all downhill from there.

At his best, those who saw him live as well as many all-time greats, thought him to be amongst the best ever, not only at his weight, but P4P.

To sim his career, keep him at prime for a short period of time. Maybe 3 game years if you're running a universe.

After that, move him to post-prime to simulate his rapid decline after his 1st defeat.

Those who lived at that particular time though higher of his ability than we currently do of that of Manny Pacquiao, to put it in perspective.

Another way to sim Terry's career would be to use his Bantamweight ratings all the way up to Lightweight, until either his first loss or 2 to 3 game years (whatever came first), then use his Featherweight ratings from that point on.

.

You should do some of the modern day fighters Jim, im sure your methods of approaching re-rating fighters could be applied well to the likes of some of boxings biggest stars of today.

Simulated the GIANT Super Heavyweights of the 21st Century
 

All throughout the history of Boxing, there have been GIANTS in the ring. Not all of them were "bums" as some people say. There have always been good, large men.

Now, it looks like the future hold more of what we're seeing today and what we've seen in recent times with fighters like Lennox Lewis, Wlad Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko and even Nikolay Valuev.

When men this big - fight big and don't hunch over, but rather use their size, jab and distance to create openings for those big right hands, there seems to be a distinct advantage in being their being able to control the pace of a round and ultimately, the pace of a fight.

If a fighter gets hit by a properly thrown punch coming from a fighter who is 6' 7" plus and weighs 240 plus pounds, you're talking some real power!

Only a swarming, weaving pressure fighter would be able to get inside and negate that type of advantage. Make a big man fight inside and historically, they have all kinds of problems. One notable exception might be Riddick Bowe. He could fight well inside.

With all that in mind, I started thinking the other day about how the game rates different styles and different skill sets and how that's changed over the years.

The first notable change came about five years ago or so. That's when the higher CF's came into play. It seems the Trunzo's used the higher control factors with certain fighters to simulate the pressure or swarming type of fighting style.

The more I examine this style, the more I see that the number of fighters who are able to pull it off are few and far in-between. First, you have to be in great, great shape each time out in order to come forward, throw volumes of punches while applying pressure, and bob/weave/move your head so you're not a sitting duck for counterpunches. That, or you need a great chin.

LaMotta had a great chin.
Greb and Walker had great chins.

Tyson had a very good chin but was an all-time great in the bobbing and weaving department.

Frazier had a good chin but was another all-time great bobbing and weaving machine.

Now, to the Super Heavyweights...

How could you simulate the ATHLETIC GIANT? It stands to reason that after the Klitschko's are gone, more and more Giants will arise on the scene to replace them. Some will be flash in the pans, but not every single one of them. Right?

So my thoughts are, how would you simulate a huge fighter like a Wlad or Vitali and at the same time, stay true the games rating system and the value (both mathematically and keeping in the same "spirit" of the historical replay) of each individual rating?

Here's what I came up with so far.

The Super Heavyweight Model

1. Doesn't throw a lot of punches each round. Doesn't land a large number of punches each round (possibly a lower PL rating?)

2. Seems to cause above average cumulative amounts of damage over the course several rounds. (higher 3 point punches)

3. Primary Weapons are the jab and right hand. The jab works as both an offensive and defensive weapon (high number of jabs, high number of 3 point jabs to simulate point #2

3. Although they have single punch power, they rarely seem to knock people out with one single concussive shot, but rather, pile up the damage to the point where that shot becomes the end result.

4. Don't fight particularly well on the inside and as a result, clinch a lot (higher clinching numbers)

5. They limit their ring movement and are overall - conserving energy until an opponent is ready to go. They don't display the aggression of a Mike Tyson, George Foreman, etc.

6. Defensively, they seem to get his less than the average fighter does! This isn't because they slip a lot of punches or have great head movement. Their defense this the difficulty opponents have getting inside and landing more than one or two punches at a time.

At the same time, you don't want to handing out -5's and 6's, as those numbers seem better suited for the defensive geniuses of the game.

Maybe the High Control factor, lower punches landed, higher 3 point punches and a -2 defense - that's where I'm at right now as far as a starting point goes.

Right now, Emanuel Steward has created the blueprint, first in Lennox Lewis and now in Wlad Klitschko (and to a point in Vitali, too) of the BIG man strategy.

They are technical fighters. Not bombs away types of sluggers. They rely upon the jab to set everything else up and can effectively tie another fighter up on the inside. Although a good pressure fighter with a good uppercut can neutralize that strategy, there aren't too many of them around!

I'm not saying that the Giant Heavyweight Fighter/Style is unbeatable. A fast boxer, mover could give them a lot of trouble, too. Also, if you put 2 Giants together, you basically have an even fight that comes down speed, power, chin, etc. without height and reaching giving any advantage.

I'm experimenting with the numbers right now.

I hope to have a few tests ready in the upcoming weeks.

-JJ

Hey Jim, I just downloaded this Vargas today & noticed he's 24-2 & lost his last 2 by KO & TKO. So you'd built him up to 24-0 & then he lost his last 2?

That's interesting because he's 22-2 in my uni.

Yes, I followed the formula of rating him at his best, then after he loses by stoppage for the first time, he drops to post-prime. He was better than his last opponent, but his chin betrayed him and he was iced!

So actually, his last fight was at post-prime.

Poor Vargas. He ran into Julian Jackson!

LOL, yeah I could see Jackson icing him. Do you recall who he lost to prior to that?

Vargas lost his WBO belt by UD last Sept. to Mayweather & years ago his WBA strap to Davey Moore via a 7th round TKO in my uni.

Joachin Alcine! And now, the post-prime Vargas will change trainers, fight a few tune-ups and be ready to get knocked out prime time again :ohmy:.

LOL, good stuff Jim! I like how you run your uni - sounds similar in ways to mine.

I'm aware of 2 trainers Vargas had in real life, I think Garcia was one & want to say Danny Smith was the other.

Talking about Alcine. When Santos KO'd him in real last July, he received a title shot & my WBA champ - Sergei. Sergei knocked out Alcine in the 14th round so he's now 6-1 & hasn't fought since, just like the real Alcine.

Fighters like Evander Holyfield made a living fighting Giant Heavyweights. Originally a Cruiserweight, Holyfield used the services of Mackey Shilstone, I believe, to initially put on the muscle mass?

Holyfield stood 6’ 2” with a 78” reach. He weighed around 210 (thanks to cyber-workouts in gym!)

In comparison, the big men he faced (big being defined as the combination of height, weight and reach) were:

Riddick Bowe: 6’ 5” 81” reach
Lennox Lewis: 6’ 5” 84” reach
George Foreman: 6’ 3 ½” 82” reach
Nikolay Valuev: 7’ 0” 85” reach

The popular school of thought is; the big man can use a jab and right hand to keep the smaller fighter at a distance all night long.

In the case of Nikolay Valuev, Holyfield was well past his prime in a fight some people feel he should have won.

Recently I heard an old interview from the 1960’s with Jess Willard. Jess stood approximately 6’ 6” and was the original “Giant.” In this interview he said that he was able to control fights with his straight left (jab) and his right hand.

This is very similar to the style of fighting Emanuel Steward has used in rebuilding the career of Wlad Klitschko. He also had Lennox Lewis employ a similar style later in his own career.

I guess you could label this style, “fighting big.”

In Willard’s case, Jack Dempsey’s infighting ability negated his overwhelming physical advantages in height, reach and weight. The result was a one-sided third round stoppage. Willard had a great chin and could soak up enormous amounts of punishment. He rose from 7 first round knockdowns and never hit the floor again. He was on his feet when the fight was called.

Today, there are only a handful of heavyweights that have any infighting skills to speak of. Chris Arreola has come a long way in this area. Most fighters “rest” more than they fight on the inside. Others simple tie up and hug their opponents until the referee separates them.

Some of the older Heavyweight Champions of the past would have given fighters like Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschko’s a pounding on the inside.

Ezzard Charles is a good example of a terrific infighter. However, if Charles started to absorbing too many shots from the bigger men, they could have worn him down and stopped him. A fighter like a Dempsey or a Marciano liked to glue themselves to an opponent. Their pressure and body punches would have presented a real threat to a Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko’s.

I don’t doubt a Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko’s could have knocked a Dempsey or a Marciano down if they caught them with a big right hand. But neither Dempsey nor Marciano were the type of fighter you could knockout with one punch.

Jess Willard may have stood 6’ 6”, but after absorbing brutal hooks to the body, the bent forward, trying to protect his body version was more like – 5’ 10”!

A good infighter and good body puncher has a nice large target in front of him when matched up with a Giant Heavyweight who likes to “fight big.”

Like Shane Mosley recently said in an interview, “A great fighter has develops a style that can adjust to and handle every other type of style.”

When trying to rate and adjust the ratings from Heavyweights from different eras, a fighter's infighting ability would then factor into the equation of how they would do - facing the "modern" big heavyweight.

Many people who don't follow boxing history think that the big Heavyweights of the past couldn't fight. They think they were all a bunch of "Primo's Carnera's." Actually, that's not true at all.

Many very good big men fell under the guns of some great infighters. Even the great Harry Wills finally went down under the smoking guns of little Sam Langford!


.

-JJ

Dempsey
 

Dempsey was once asked how he thought he would have done against Harry Wills, the much-avoided Black Heavyweight of the era. Dempsey said the he, personally, had no qualms about fighting Wills. To paraphrase him he said "Big guys like that were made-to-order for me."

Rocky Marciano said the same thing about larger fighters. In an interview, he said smaller fighters gave him more problems. He said that fighters like Walcott and Moore gave him problems because they didn't have to "punch down" at him and therefore generated more power.

He said that "punching up" helped him to generate even more power because his legs were the foundation of his punching power.

They can teach technique, which can improve a fighter's power somewhat, but they've never been able to teach power.

Mickey Walker was another fighter who loved fighting taller heavier men. He said he like to get inside and "belt their guts out."

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
 

Floyd Mayweather is one of the more controversial fighters in the game today. Mayweather is a slick boxer, along the lines of a Pernell Whitaker but with more power. Some have compared Mayweather to Ray Leonard, but their fighting styles are very much different. Mayweather's style, like Whitaker, wouldn't fall under the boxer puncher category. Not at Welterweight, anyway. He was more so at the lighter weights. His safety first approach, however, has become more evident as he’s risen in weight. More often than not, boxers like Floyd score knockouts as the result of accumulated punishment. This isn't to say they can't score one-punch knockouts. Even Pernell scored a one-punch goodnighter against slugger Louis Lomeli way back when.


At Jr. Lightweight, Floyd’s absorb punishment rating is a “1”. This, I feel, is a bit too high. Salvador Sanchez, a defensive, counter-punching expert, is ranked with a 2 in the Absorb Punishment category.

A 1 is the very best possible rating a fighter can have. I feel the “1” should be reserved for fighters like Jake LaMotta, Tex Cobb, Jim Jeffries, etc.

These were men who actually took unbelievable amounts of punishment, more than just once, during the course of their careers. I don’t feel that Floyd Mayweather has ever come close to those types of performances for good reason. He's not the type of fighter who can withstand that sort of punishment. No shame in that.

Fighters who can walk through punches, do so at one time or another! Fighters who cannot, use superior ring generalship, speed and defense to avoid taking punishment.

A fighter along the lines of a Whitaker or Mayweather have superior defensive skills and ring generalship which enable them to avoided getting knocked out or hurt with big punches. A fighter like Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson, even Oscar DeLaHoya were known to go to war on occasion against big punchers.

In Mayweather’s case, we’ve never seen his chin really tested. He was knocked down against Carlos Hernandez at Jr. Lightweight back in 2001. Other than that once instance, his chin has never had to absorb punches from a big puncher. Hernandez himself was not a knockout puncher, but he did have respectable power.

In Whitaker’s case, he hit the canvas in later years after his speed and reflexes began to wane. In each case, however, he was able to get up and clinch successfully until his head cleared. He didn't have the type of chin that enabled him to "walk through thunder," but it wasn't so bad that a single shot would do him in, either.

Mayweather never had the opportunity to showcase his ability against a class of fighter who occupied the Jr. Lightweight through Welterweight divisions in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s. Mayweather didn’t have a Duran, Leonard, Pryor or Arguello against whom his overall skills could be more accurately assessed.

Without exception, the great fighters of the past invariably found themselves in life or death struggles against one or more opponents throughout their careers. A lack of such in Mayweather’s career points to the overall quality of his competition as much as it does to his overall ability. The closest he came was against Jose Luis Castillo in a fight that some thought should have been his first loss. To his credit, however, he left Castillo in the dust in their rematch.

There are cases where a pure boxer actually has the ability to soak up punishment and climb off the canvas to engage in a shootout. Willie Pep is a good example. His TKO/Absorb punishment rating is a “1” and was undoubtedly earned against one of the greatest blasters of all-time in the Featherweight division – Sandy Saddler.

Ali survived Foreman’s power shots to the body and head as well as Frazier’s. He didn’t just take punches on the arms, he took them to the head and body as well. His rating stands at a 1 which is also justifiable.

Using the same logic, we have yet to see anything from Floyd Mayweather that would warrant his ability to soak up that type of punishment thus far. Again, however, you can't fault anyone for not having an "all-time great chin." It is what it is.

As I’ve already said, I’ve tweaked his “1” Absorb Punishment rating to a “2” at Jr. Lightweight, Lightweight, Welterweight, etc.

In the area of punching power, I scaled back the 9 to an 8. Floyd’s CF’s, number of three point punches and a hitting power of 8 will produce plenty of KO’s. In comparison, Salvador Sanchez, a fighter similar to Floyd in many ways is ranked overall as a 12. Currently, Floyd stands at 14. Sanchez’s hitting power is currently ranked at 8 and he scored 32 knockouts in 44 fights against arguably better competition – which included the great Azumah Nelson (whose hitting power, by the way, stands at 7).

Did an Azumah Nelson have more power than Floyd Mayweather? You can be the judge of that!

That’ll do it for his Jr. Lightweight numbers

Again, at Lightweight, Jr. Welterweight and Welterweight, I’ve tweaked his Absorb Punishment rating from 1 to 2.

At the Jr. Lightweight level I’ve kept his defense at -6. At Lightweight, Jr. Welterweight and Welterweight, I’ve lessened it just a bit to -5. Pernell Whitaker was a little harder to hit, in my opinion, than Mayweather, especially with the jab. Oscar DeLaHoya landed just about every jab he threw against Mayweather during their fight and everyone at ringside was asking him afterward why he stopped throwing it when it was so effective.

His response was, “I don’t know!”

A -5 is still outstanding. I’m just trying to give credit where credit is due with Sweet Pea’s defensive ability. I guess you could make an argument for keeping Mayweather at -6 at Lightweight through Jr. Welterweight, but Welterweight is another matter. Wilfred Benitez is another good example of a -6 rating. Floyd’s up there, but just a hair below.

This puts “Money” Mayweather right up there with an overall ranking of 13 with the exception of his Lightweight ranking where he was probably at his overall peak with a rating of 14.

Personally, when I step back, it’s hard to see him as an all-time great Lightweight… but in keeping the ratings consistent with his contemporaries, he’s actually a “low” 14. One number lower in any major area will drop his overall rating to 13.

As of this writing, Floyd’s undefeated record is the one thing that gains more attention than his overall achievements. Everyone wants to see if the next opponent will be the first to hand “Money” his first defeat. A valid knock against Mayweather would be the "persona" he's decided to use with the media. Personalities sell. Mayweather consciously choose his "bad ass," street image to sell tickets. In the world of business, there's really nothing wrong with that... but in boxing, fans will expect you to live up to that in the ring. Especially in a megafight as he had against Oscar DeLaHoya.

Should he defeat someone on the level of Manny Pacquiao and retire undefeated, history will surely be a lot kinder to him. The criticism he faces today will fade into the background. If he loses (especially by knockout), there will be a lot of people who will respond as they did with Tyson and insist he was overrated the whole time.

Very good, interesting analysis Jim!

Thanks, Hamed. Talking about tweaking numbers, I had to tweak the write up! It's amazing how the mind is thinking one thing and the fingers are typing something just a little bit different. :ohmy:

LOL, I know what you mean Jim. I'll read something after a I wrote it & think: "That's not what I meant or was even thinking, what the heck!"