Update from 9/21/18
 

Given recent discussion, I thought it was time to post a few of my thoughts regarding the direction of Front Office Football Nine, as well as our progress.

First and foremost, we want a finished game that's playable. Sounds easy, right? However, games get larger and more complex every year and the days when a solo developer could perform every task seem to have ended.

As I wrote more than ten years ago, with software, the jump from one coder to two is larger and more complex (those words again) than going from two to ten.

OOTP brings exactly what the Front Office franchise needs. Similar experiences and goals, but also familiarity with those growing pains. When I first talked about this project with Markus and Andreas last year, all of us shared enthusiasm for the potential of what we could do. It's now a matter of executing that vision.

We're doing well. We're still perfecting the art of fitting our development cycle in with the different projects OOTP has under its wing. We're making good progress.

That said, I can tell you where we are now. The Front Office Football internals are converted to a form that works for a multi-platform environment and for anticipated future structural changes. The GUI framework is taking shape and we're ready for the potent magic of graphic design.

I'll go into a little detail about one of those structural changes, because it illustrates exactly the kinds of long-term goals we have for this project. One complaint about FOF is that it is limited to the current 32-team, eight division pro football structure. Yet some customers want to play with different league formats.

The original plan was to convert Front Office Football function as is, then move to more flexible league formats for future versions. But because we've had extra development time in recent months, we'll be able to fully support a few league formats (meaning scheduling, playoff structure, AI) right out of the gate. With the potential of adding more before the release and eventually (this part I can't promise in FOF9 because I've only done a little bit of work on it) the ability to add your own custom league structures and schedules (which means those of you who love spreadsheets and embrace adventure will gladly share them with the rest of the community).

I've also been able to add some more features that I've wanted to do for some time, but never quite found room in the schedule. Another example (and I won't share them all, because not everything is tested and sometimes you add something and it just doesn't feel right) is implementing the OOTP calendar structure. You'll play FOF9 day-by-day rather than the stage-oriented approach of FOF8.

As Markus wrote recently, we're months away from being able to show off this work. There is no release date scheduled, nor do we have anything settled right now. It's done when it's ready. Our merger makes sense only if we have something you'll enjoy year after year. This means it has to be up to our standards. No more, no less, no quick fixes.

Andreas posted that we couldn't guarantee multi-player function for the release. That's true. We can't guarantee anything that isn't currently working, and out of the hundreds of thousands of lines of code in FOF8, multi-player function is the piece that translates least efficiently to FOF9. The FOF8 multi-player code is Windows-specific and the snippets of multi-player instruction are all in pieces that react to GUI interaction.

It will be among the last pieces I work on. Since multi-player mirrors single-player, it's by design a good candidate for a feature implemented later in the development cycle when everything's more settled. It's also one of the true hybrid pieces of the new game, in that I have code that defines the scope and execution of multi-player commands, but it will end up working in a way that's familiar for those who play multi-player OOTP. So it's not a simple add. It requires a lot of coordination.

I know you want concrete answers, and we don't have them. It would be a poor business decision to hold up a finished product to add a new function. However, it would also be a poor business decision to completely abandon something that we know has brought people enjoyment for a long time. We're thinking about how best to serve everyone's desires.

The only correct answer is to say it's something we would like to provide, but it's not something we can work on at this stage of development and it's not guaranteed to be in the inital release. It's also correct to say that we recognize that for many people, it's a feature that they won't do without. We want customers, so we're certainly not crossing it off any list.

We have also discussed how best to serve existing FOF8 customers. The plan, if we provide multi-player function for FOF9, is to write an internal tool to convert existing multi-player leagues. Commissioners will upload their game files and we'll convert them and provide a detailed explanation of how we're handling the extensive internal structural changes from FOF8. Front Office Football commissioners are familiar with this routine.

Moving forward, OOTP games have automatic conversion routines built in. So we've added the basic support for this when we go from FOF9 to FOF10. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Finally, while I'd like to provide frequent updates on progress, I'm also aware of the dangers of talking too much about something that isn't yet completed. I'm never going to tell you this is the "best" anything or promise that something will be in the game that we haven't yet programmed. I'm not going to be posting much while we're busy with development. Once we are closer to our goals, those around here who are more experienced with the product release process will start doing their thing and I assume I'll be here to answer questions and explain more about the product.

Thanks for the update, Jim! Thread stickied.







Wow. I wasn't expecting this in the first release.

This sounds like an exciting change in both SP and MP, especially with regard to free agent signings. I wonder if it might also mean some overlapping stages like OOTP has. That'd be a significant strategy-changer.

Thanks for the update. Cant wait :drool:

Thanks for the update. Very excited to hear the game will have at least some customization options as it relates to league structure.

Also appreciate the detailed explanation of the challenges of implementing MP. I sure hope it is something that can be done sooner than later. However, I also am very satisfied by the rationale why it may not be in initial release and hope it also quells the concerns of the forum members who seemed to be under the impression the decision was some kind of vendetta agaisnt the MP/existing FOF community.

Very disappointed to see that multiplayer isn't near or at the top of your list....

Edit : I actually did feel the need to say more... My long running Draft Day Sports league was really looking forward to converting. That's 32 purchases likely out the window... But I know, we can be replaced.

However! Thanks for the update.. Any update is appreciated...

I'm a fictional league guy obsessed with immersion, so the three things I'm looking for most are
1. obviously fictional league play with the ability to have my own custom teams

2. Facegen for all my fictional guys

3. detailed record keeping

and to a lesser extent

1. awards
2. news stories

FWIW, Fictional leagues, custom teams, and detailed record keeping have been part of the core game since at least 2003, maybe farther back than that. I don't recall off the top of my head how much further back those things go, but I know that I'm in a league started with FOF2K4 that has been 100% fictional teams and players since then, and that game was released in Fall 2003. Awards have also been part of the game since FOF2K1 for sure, and perhaps since FOF1.

News stories would be huge, yeah. Facegen would be cool as well, but I wonder about the limitations mentioned earlier regarding hair.

I appreciate the reasoned and fairly detailed post, even if I'm still a bit bummed that mp might not make the initial release.

The fact we're getting a release at all is still kinda mind blowing to me because I thought FOF might've died with FOF8.

The one thing that stuck out to me, and I meant to say as much in the Online Leagues thread before it got locked, is that mp is generally a late add in most games. This is different from a back end architecture which will facilitate mp, but the actual implementation of mp in a game usually comes quite late because it requires a playable game first and only then can the net code or whatever be brought in.

With FOF moving to a day-to-day sim I can see how mp will come way far down on the list because the rest of the way the game acts needs to be firmed up before mp code is created.

This!

Great to hear development is ongoing. That's what the fanbase mostly wants to know.

I'm likely in the minority that plays FOF only in MP mode, and right now I'm neither disappointed nor happy about that area being the hardest to implement. There's no point in releasing a MP-feature if it isn't finished, so I guess I prefer to see it when it'd done rather than when it's "almost done".

well said, mijb.

while i love playing mp, i can see myself getting interested in SP if the AI gets stronger -- similar to Ben, I would prefer to play in my own pace, and this is the main challenge of MP to me.

my approach is that we didn't have a new game until some months ago as garion said, so i'm rejoicing with the release coming up in the next months. if it has only SP, i'll enjoy playing the new game, which I hope brings additional challenges.

Thanks for the update Jim. Some nice stuff in there for sure.

Thanks Jim, can't wait to enjoy your new game!!

While I know some may not be totally enthusiastic with some of what you said (like no guarantee of multiplayer support) I’m just thankful of a detailed update! While my sim gaming has been exclusively multiplayer over the last 5+ years, I would consider running my only single player league to get used to the new engine with this game. Keep up the great work!!!


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I'm not disappointed, since I have zero interest in multiplayer. I just hope nothing is rushed to meet any deadlines. Thanks for the update.

Really, really happy to get the update. Sounds like progress is being made steadily but that it will still take a few more months before release. If you guys can get it out the door in good condition around the end of the year, or maybe even before, I will be ecstatic.

Finally, we all appreciate getting any update to progress on the project. It would so help the angst regarding patience as we wait for the final program. Would be really happy if we could get updates at least monthly even if they're not as comprehensive as this one.

The update is really appreciated! It's good to know you're taking your time for all the right reasons. It'll be worth the wait.

I don't care when the game comes either as long as it is well-made.

And I also would love the periodic updates, even just to pop in to say that development is going well

I'm interested in the day-by-day idea. In football, it seems like this could make the free agent market a good deal more immersive. If you're getting a variety of messages when the fur is really flying... WR1 is asking for 4/$24m and his agent insists he wants his big bonus of he's taking the Raiders' offer instead... but the almost as good WR2 is saying he's ready to sign with you right now for 2/$9m...and you don't really have the cap space to sign them both. I could see that becoming a full level more interesting than the free agency process is now, in single-player FOF.

I can't yet envision how this would work in multi-player, but that seems surmountable overall.

If we can retain the core of FOF that makes it work so well under the hood, add in a bit more depth and appeal to the interface, and then work out the "look and feel" things like this, I could be really really happy with the outcome of this partnership.

Yeah, you've fleshed precisely what I was talking about in my earlier post. Tough decisions ftw.

I think this one would be on both the development team and the commishes. The ol' "revoke offer if player signs" type stuff would be crucial, but I'd think a thorough understanding of frequency of signings by the league commish would be critical as well--does the offseason run 5 days, a week, 10 days, 12 days, 20 days, or a month at a time? From the dev end, do top-tier players recognize--as they seem to in OOTP--that they're the subject of a bidding war and therefore wait a bit to be signed? And from the commish end, if there is something like that in place, how do you respond to it in terms of how long each sim entails. Would it end up making sense to have variable sim lengths, even? I suspect there's going to be a fair bit to be learned and explored in this realm, and some trial and error.


True dat.

Long time lurker, infrequent contributor. I am SO EXCITED for this game, and appreciate the update here. I've never been a MP player, but oddly enough, the thread from yesterday has intrigued me to try it, whenever that day comes. In the meantime, I can't wait to get my hands dirty with whatever SP product comes to market.

I've been an OOTP customer since OOTP 9, and, given your track record, I trust each and every one of you wholeheartedly. I can't wait to dig in, and thank you again!

In the meantime, I might pick my copy of FOF7 back up and run some weeks in Solecismic TV (I think that's what it was called).

Ben already covered some of it, but ...

While it remains to be seen how MP free agency will work in FOF, in OOTP leagues often online leagues slow down during free agency and only sim maybe two to three days at a time at least for the first few weeks of free agency. So basically you submit your offers and commish advances the file forward and usually by next sim you will have an answer - whether it is that another team offered better, your offer is best or if you blew them away with an offer, that they have signed.

As Ben mentioned typically the marquee stars don't sign right away, so there is often bidding wars where GMs have multiple chances to reassess and reoffer. It definitely creates more realism and immersion than the "stages" system in FOF.

Can't wait to play it Jim, thanks for the update.

Thanks Jim. I was already looking forward to this. Now, even more so.

Nothing better than competing against 31 other humans with their own styles, perspectives and tendencies. I highly suggest giving MP a chance. There are lots of great leagues out there with outstanding commissioners and communities dedicated to helping players get back and more competitive at this game.

Yes, indeed, and those of us who were solitaire players remember this just as well. It's why I didn't buy FOF7. I will buy FOF9 because OOTP won't behave this way. Even so, I lose another team just for the privilege of supporting your product.

It's lousy customer support, Jim. I have no idea why you think it's acceptable.


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It sounds exactly the same to me. The technical part of it, that is. Right now in MP, we go stage by stage, which sort of simulates sprints of like 1 or 2 weeks at a time of the off-season. In older FOF versions it was 20 stages in pre-draft free agency and 12 stages after the draft. The MP league I play in has 5 stages pre-draft and 1 stage post-draft.
For top free agents to sign later, that sounds like it would require an overhaul of the algorithm determining when and where those players are willing to sign. How many stages are used to simulate the off-season shouldn't matter that much, MP leagues will have to compromise in compressed stages to keep a decent enough pace to keep everybody interested.
I'd be really happy if that would be the case though: top free agents milking the cash hoarding teams to get the best money or cap scraping top tier team to offer a chance to win it all in one more season. And at the same time have the career backups and marginal starters not wait until late in the off-season, but settle earlier for a place that offers them good playing time for the money.

But that's getting a bit off topic, the announcement/news is what matters here.

A delayed release >>> a broken release


Take your time team. I also wouldn't announce a release date until it's about a month away.

Thanks for the update. Like many others here, I'm really looking forward to this game!

What are the odds of getting play animations in this version? I've never played FOF but from what I've gathered, the play results have always been text-only.

In my opinion, animations are the thing which can elevate a realistic sports sim into a totally immersive experience. For me it's a pretty important aspect, even it's just simple 2D animations. This is something OOTP baseball nails down perfectly, so it's definitely something I'm hoping we will see in FOF9.

I would say with near certainty that there's zero per cent chance of that in FOF9.

I'd settle for a static graphic that showed the opposing formations. That would help me visualize the game a lot when doing Solevision.


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That’s a great idea

Jim the MP community got you on Steam, i hope you remember us in this new release. :) Mr Cole with all due respect that is a question for Jim and no one else. :)

Looking at Jim's post history and given the tone of this thread I doubt he will be stopping in to answer "is X feature in?" type questions. Considering it took years for this feature to be included into OOTP, I would assume it would be similar for FOF and especially given the fact MP is not a guarantee, common sense should dictate a massive new addition like 2D won't just pop into a first iteration game.

I apologize for putting my opinion on a question directed for Jim, but there are so many new people coming into the forums who are unfamiliar with OOTP and/or FOF that I think it is important to try to keep expectations realistic of what a first release of this partnership will be.

I am not a MP and never will. I am encouraged by this post. Take your time and release a quality product. I am certain not everything I want will be there either. It sounds like it should be fun though.

I'm only in this for multiplayer leagues, that's a deal-breaker for me if not included. Praying it is!!!!

Great update Jim, thank you! I think I can speak for everyone when I say I'd rather see a release with minimal flaws in a year than a release with a ton of bugs by December. Its better for us because we can play the game without issues, which is better for you because you'll have more loyal consumers that keep buying new iterations.

Just one question, for really anyone that might have info on this, but what is the plan for graphics? (logos, uniforms, player faces, etc.)

Logos, uniforms, fictional player pictures as well as Photofit/fg pictures via Facegen, all of it as in OOTP and FHM.

this

OOTP and FOF are both the nuts, you will always get my money, thanks for update

Will there be a 2D animation component a la what we see in Draft Day Sports PF?

Read few posts above

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I still hope to one day see a FOF TCY2. With the day-by-day format, a dream would be both college & pro integrated into the same game similar to how OOTP has multiple leagues & movement of coaches/players between them (though in this, of course have college players would simply feed the pro league.)

That would indeed be cool. We'd have to have a second simulation engine in the game because college football is so different to the NFL. But who knows, maybe one day in the distant future.... we'll see :)

College (and high school) baseball is obviously much different than the pros too but this is handled nicely in OOTP via player and league modifiers (I think anyways. . don't believe there is a second engine). Hopefully something similar can be adapted for FOF one day.

couldn't you possibly use modifiers similar to those found in OOTP?...or is the FOF simulation engine so vastly different that it couldn't be done?

i know it’s not reasonable to expect a college football component at this point, but what I’d really like to see is have the upcoming draft class created early such as the start of preseason rather than having it created in the post season stage as it’s always been. I think in FOF the draft class creation is a totally independent function, so there’s no reason it *has* to be done at the end of the season.

So starting off the season you’d have a list of the top 10 QBs, RBs, etc (something like ootp’s top prospects list). The ratings and combine scores would obviously be hidden at this point, but at least you’d have an idea of the upcoming rookie class, rather than having them appear out of nowhere after the season. The data is already out there of roughly what percentage of top prospects come from which states and which schools. So I’m not talking about any big change — FOF already does exactly this, generates a draft class at the end of the season with rankings of the top prospects overall and by position. I’m just saying do this prior to the season rather then after. You can even have a basic player card with height, weight, school, facegen picture, whatever info you want to reveal.

Then just spit out random stats for each player every weak. Not simulate an actual college football season in the background, but we know the average stats for the top QB in the SEC, PAC 12, etc, and standard deviation, so just spit out an essentially random stat line for each player based on the hidden ratings and combine scores. Just showing the guys who will be in the next draft and letting them build up a semi-random stat line so you don’t have a draft class appear out of thin air after the season. Maybe have the prospect list be dynamic. Then after the season you’ve have the “combine” which would just be a “reveal” of the combine scores and estimated ratings the same way it’s always been done.

It’s really nothing but window dressing, just a dice roll and result based on averages and standard deviations, but it lets you get familiar with the upcoming draft class, especially if you have a last place team. You can start watching who you might target in the next draft, etc.

This is the kind of simple thing that would make the game so much more immersive and realistic and fun, without adding some very complex new component to the game. Things like bringing back betting lines or adding something like an MVP and Player of the Year race starting halfway through the year that updates each week (just like you already have team power ratings and player of the week lists, etc).

These are the kinds of things I’d like to see at this point. Not necessarily big new features to the game that will take forever to code and by adding something new you break what was already there. Instead, take what’s already there and use it to make things more immersive. Another example would be something like personalities. FOF already has ratings for leadership and loyalty and wants winner but they are just sort of random numbers. You can keep them but do it like ootp where it would say, this guy just wants to get paid. Definitely no more astrological signs.

Another example would be generated scouting reports for each player just based on his ratings the same way ootp does, say something like a running back is a breakaway threat every time he touches the ball but he’s best on the perimeter and is not a guy who can pound it up the middle, he’s a leader on the team but most of all he wants to get paid. All of this stuff has been in FOF for more than a decade, but it’s all just numbers without any description. If you take these existing elements and pull them together and slap on a facegen image and suddenly you have real people instead of a spreadsheet. The game already tracks rating increases/declines, but instead of just looking at mind-numbing lists of numbers, you can have a scouting report that says the guy is clearly on the decline but can still rush the passer or can still stop the run, or maybe for a draft prospect you could say this guy has a high ceiling but is a real boom or bust prospect (instead of just obscured ratings and a volatility score of 98).

It makes me think of the earlier role playing dungeons and dragons type games games that were out there. Everything was based on simple ratings and math, but they added faces and armor and special skills etc and even though everything was just still just ratings and dice rolls, it felt like they were real characters and not just spreadsheets. An even better example is Football Manager (soccer), which is also just numbers and math but it’s presented in a way that makes it feel like a living breathing universe. I think this is why people get so addicted to FM, not because you can make fake leagues and teams which I don’t think you can even do. The focus in FM is making you feel like you’re a manager of real players and everything that goes with it.

This is what I think was the problem with the old FOF interface that ootp can remedy. In FOF all player information had to fit on one screen and everything was a number, which is why people called it a spreadsheet game. I think it’s the reason why so many people said they hated the interface and never gave the game a chance. Sure, part of it was the outdated look, but I think much of it was the fact that it was all numbers and there was no humanity to the players. Many old school players had no problem dealing with this, but I think new players and the younger generation are turned off by it. With ootp, they have scouting reports and personality descriptions and facegen and a lot more open interface that can bring life to the players so Jim can work on things like the x and o’s and offensive and defensive philosophies and the things that are really important.

Sorry this is a long post and to be honest I haven’t read the other threads so it’s probably off topic, but just think FOF already has so much of what people want in a game, it’s just buried beneith the complexity of it all. I think instead of focusing on adding complex new features that will end up breaking existing features, it would be better to use the openness of the ootp interface to bring the players and the league to life and sort of spoon feed information to the user that is already in the game, for example, have a news item listing older players who have had big ratings drops instead of forcing the user to click through every player and compare ratings changes, or reports of breakout players (i.e. big ratings increases due to volatility). Or injuries to top players, etc. instead of just lists where the important information (big injuries to good players) is obscured by small injuries to roster filler). I’d really like to see something like the BNN reports page in ootp where all the useful information is pulled together in one place.

I’m sure the feature list has already been decided upon by the developers, but I hope these are the types of things that can be added in the first couple versions — things that are already part of the game and already work well, but basically feel lifeless because they’re buried so deep into what is essentially a spreadsheet. I think when people complain about “the interface” a big part of what they’re complaining about (maybe unconsciously) is just the level of incoherent information overload. Going back to what I started with, something simple like showing the upcoming draft class through the season with personalities and semi-random stat lines etc is where the user can start to develop a bond with what feel like real people since these are the players who will eventually populate the game universe, rather than have a bunch of fictional strangers pop out of nowhere after the season.

Anyway, thanks for the update. It all sounds good to me.

Really good post, and along the lines of which i’ve been thinking and posting on FOFC for years.

Would make a huge difference - for me, these games live/die on how immersed into the game world the player becomes, and this would help hugely, along with making the stats, records, news, etc presented to you rather than hidden away in sub-menus

This is what FOF needs IMHO, info to be pushed, not needing to be found.

Jim started a thread on push vs. pull a while back. There hasn't been much additional "push" added to FOF since then. I can only assume that this comment he made when starting the thread is a big part of why:It'll be interesting to see how Jim's philosophy and OOTP's strong "push" model end up mixing/merging in this version. (Or if, perhaps, Jim's thinking on this has changed.)

Jdavidbakr’s post is also very close to my vision of how it would work:
Confused by something RaidersArmy wrote though
Newspaper! 2009 was such a long time ago!